Not seeing the forest for the trees

[FALCONWING]

Falconwing, lets clear the air a little bit, okay?

What you found to be an insult to your squad was this statement: "There isn't a single BOP that could wake me up from a nap."

That may hurt some feelings, but it was meant to provoke some thought. First and foremost, it's a true statement. Granted, I could have said that there isn't one member of the BOPs that would survive a duel with me. So yeah, it was harsh; but it wasn't exaggeration. Nonetheless, it wasn't polite and I apologize for being rather unkind. You defended your guys and that's a good thing. That's what good leaders do.

You seem like a good guy, and fellow DFC guys who know you have told me exactly that. Being pretty good judges of character, I will gladly accept their opinions as fact. So rather than snipe at each other, let's concentrate on how we can agree. Fair enough?

I realize that you set up training sessions for your squad to duel and brawl. That's also a good thing. However, I have learned that most players will never rise above the level of competition. When average players duel average players, the winner is just a better average player. To get to a higher level, you need stiffer competition. This would be top level pilots who can spot mistakes and weaknesses and make or recommend immediate adjustments. That's where the Trainers and DFC can benefit your guys.

I'm willing to join your group in the TA anytime you want to bring them in. I can bring in other trainers and/or DFC members. Believe me, a few intense sessions will switch on lights.

First, we'll show how them exactly how outclassed they are. I know that sounds mean and even pompous, but it is essential to recognize where you are. They need that baseline. With 30 minutes of coaching, they will actually see a measurable improvement. They will become excited that they could step it up that quick. Every one of them will come away realizing that they have more potential than they ever imagined. From there, it's upward and onward. As they they improve, increments of gain will become smaller. Like a runner, getting to a 5 minute mile is attainable. Getting to 4:45 will be hard. Getting to 4:40 will be very hard. We should be able to get everyone to the 5 minute mile goal. Some will continue, working for the next level. Others will be satisfied at the 5 minute mark. However, all will be notably better for the effort.

I think it's worth the effort.

PM me if you think I can help your guys...


My regards,

Widewing

Thank you for your post...I will relay it to the guys and recommend we do this

[moot]

Sorry Vudak, I didn't mean to imply your approach was amateurish. I meant that informed leaders don't stop at strategy. Logistics in AH mean taking the fundamental strategic plan and applying it specificaly via tactical choices.  Which means BFM/ACM, unless your plan doesnt include enemy contact. Can't have one without the other.  The large squads typically don't have what it takes to compete in "low level" tactics, in my experience.  That's not a dig, it's my factual first hand report.
Nice to see Falconwing finaly see what we've been arguing so long.  All it took was a bolt of lightning

Getback. You first mentionned those tricks saying that there was more to top level planning than to low level dogfighting tactics, and those tricks don't prove that point. Short of a megabrain in a jar, you can't really do both at the same time. You can't keep track of everything from top level to low level unless you've got disciplined chain of command and excellent comms from top to bottom, and able bodies all the way thru as well. 

[Getback]

Getback...

I actually had a very nice phone conversation with a fellow that is in a professed "win the war" squad. After an hour (not all spent talking about this crap ), he was able to admit that I might have a point and that he was going to start paying attention to how other folks play the game and see if what I was saying had any merit.

What I suggested was that he stop looking at the game from inside his squad and start to look at how others play. So yes, I would agree that text is a piss poor method of communication.

Well that's pretty cool.

I sit back much of the time and study the game, what's going on, what country is doing what, and how are they doing it. I actually consider myself more of a fighter pilot than a landgrabber. However I enjoy both. At times I enjoy gving and buffing. But very little of the buffing.

When I return, I'm going to continue working on my fighter skills. I had been flying fairly well. Getting a little more agressive all the while. Until then I have some arduous tasks in real life. Studying for the cpa exam and finding a job.

[Getback]

Sorry Vudak, I didn't mean to imply your approach was amateurish. I meant that informed leaders don't stop at strategy. Logistics in AH mean taking the fundamental strategic plan and applying it specificaly via tactical choices.  Which means BFM/ACM, unless your plan doesnt include enemy contact. Can't have one without the other.  The large squads typically don't have what it takes to compete in "low level" tactics, in my experience.  That's not a dig, it's my factual first hand report.
Nice to see Falconwing finaly see what we've been arguing so long.  All it took was a bolt of lightning

Getback. You first mentionned those tricks saying that there was more to top level planning than to low level dogfighting tactics, and those tricks don't prove that point. Short of a megabrain in a jar, you can't really do both at the same time. You can't keep track of everything from top level to low level unless you've got disciplined chain of command and excellent comms from top to bottom, and able bodies all the way thru as well. 

I did? Show me the quote you are referring to so I can have a better understanding of what you are saying. I get a feeling it's a two parter.

[moot]

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258518.msg3206386.html#msg3206386

[Getback]

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258518.msg3206386.html#msg3206386

Which post?

[BaldEagl]

Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war. Basically they are not seeing the forest for the trees.

OK, this might be a little chest thumping but it's not really meant to be.  It's meant to illustrate a point.

Tonight I was flying alone (or mostly so) around the north island port on Trinity which Rooks were attacking on occasion.  I landed 7 kills in my first sortie in a P-47D-11.  Unfortunately I had to bug out bingo ammo just as the NOE hoard arrived.  They took the port.

I re-upped in a P-47N and headed back.  On my flight out we took the port back but the Rooks wanted it pretty badly.  Before I left again the defending Bish had mostly dissapeared and I had five pelts. Fortunately, the Rook attack had, for the most part, dried up too but I still got three more before RTBing.

Maybe you want to chastise me for "landing kills and getting WTG's" but I felt that if I hadn't been there that port might have been lost for good (or at least until the Bish hoard NOE'd to take it back).  Believe it or not but killing 15 of those guys on two sorties made a difference.

IMO having a few decent sticks around landing kills is a good thing, even for the "win the war" crowd.  WhereTF where they when I was out there alone defending that base on my first sortie?  Oh, that's right... they were hoarding 25:1 on a base to the south.   

[redman555]

whether takin bases to win happens or not, there will always be furballing, and personally I think its fun to do once in awhile, i just dont like to fly 40 miles and then get shot down


-BigBOBCH

[Vudak]

Sorry Vudak, I didn't mean to imply your approach was amateurish. I meant that informed leaders don't stop at strategy. Logistics in AH mean taking the fundamental strategic plan and applying it specificaly via tactical choices.  Which means BFM/ACM, unless your plan doesnt include enemy contact. Can't have one without the other.  The large squads typically don't have what it takes to compete in "low level" tactics, in my experience.  That's not a dig, it's my factual first hand report.

No worries, Moot, I knew you weren't implying that.  I just took your post and used it to illustrate another topic.

While we're on the topic, another way you could look at tactical choices would be the fuel/ordinance loadouts, targets, and waypoints of the planes in your mission.  I know I'm not the first to check the mission roster and find every plane loaded to the gills with all the ordinance they can carry, set to fly in one large clump to one particular airfield.

I guess I'm just trying to point out there are some better ways to try and take bases.  Why would I bother?  Well, I've spent hour after hour reading, dueling, flying, questioning, losing, and working, trying to get better at the flying part of my game.  I'd feel a whole lot better about that work being labelled "quake-like gaming" and the like if the people saying that actually put 1/4 of the effort into their particular areas of expertise.  Because right now, with the current state of the arena, furballers, duelers, and lonewolfs aren't the most deserving of that title.

[Getback]

There is a lot more strategy in surviving a multi plane engagement and still effectively killing without advantage.  I don't understand what the strategy is of taking a base you speak of.  A 10 year old could plan an effective base capture mission with a few guys.  It's pretty cut and dry: 1) Take the VH down 2) Take the town down 3) Take FHs down if you have enough men and/or no fighter cap on base 4) Run troops into the map room.  How does this strategy ever change?  Furballs are dynamic and always changing.  Complex strategy is a must to dominate this fight properly. 

The perception that the WtW guys are the 'thinkers' while the furballers are just mindless drones turning around in circles couldn't be anymore opposite. 

Moot, is this the post you are referring to? Well I will go with this. I see your point. It appears I'm putting down furballers. However, he finishes the last sentence with " It couldn't be any more opposite. So I disagreed with him on base taking strategy and agreed with him on furballers (Albeit I do have some reservations on furballers just as many have on landgrabbers).

You are absolutely correct about the able bodies all the way through. Many missions include some of Bish's best fighter pilots. On most of my missions I look at the mission roster and feel a little more confident when I see certain folks in the mission. The guys who can take the town down, field ack or what ever needs taken down and almost 100% of the time succeed in their part of the mission. These able bodied souls also do much more. They see how things develop and often do much much more than whatever their task was.

I'll give you an example of a mission gone horrible wrong do to lack of able bodied souls or really lack of experience. I put up an noe mission for a base capture. Now I'm of the mindset that the best way to take a town down in a 110 is to plow through the town. If you plow through the town you may only get 3 ack on you at the most and in reality probably only one and you can easily kill that one. Also, you get a more time on target and kill more buildings. Diving on a building may only allow you enough time to take out 1 or 2 buildings while plowing through I have taken out as many as 5-7 buildings and it gets the town down faster. Only thing faster is dropping bombs. Another advantage is the full radar is not yet showing. So I tell these guys to plow through. There were 7 110s in the mission. Well yeah they plowed through and crashed into the buildings.  I looked around and they were all dead! I wouldn't have thought that they would need to be told to pull up before they hit a building.