Author Topic: Perceptions of fight quality  (Read 5414 times)

Offline Wmaker

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #105 on: February 24, 2009, 04:18:05 PM »
My opinions change over time.  I try to keep learning new things, I've been trying to be more aggressive as my ACM abilities versus superior-energy-state opponents improve, I've been trying new aircraft... If my opinions didn't change that would probably be bad.

We're both rooks right now, but I think next month our squad is going knight for a tour.  I'm getting the hang of the Ki-84 and I hope next time I give you a better fight than what that film shows there (and I won't be so paranoid about being dragged to friendlies). :salute

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #106 on: February 24, 2009, 04:22:07 PM »
You know what's really funny? All the talk on this board about the good ol' days and These Kids Today and what have you cut be cut and pasted into any one of about four different boards I follow intermittently on hobbies ranging from Cowboy Action Shooting to movie prop/replica collecting.

IIRC, I started playing AW in 1995 or 1996 and by the time I'd been in it for 3 months you heard all the same complaints.

Gavagai is right - the game may change, but the biggest change is the perception of the player.

As for my perspective, here's a few things I've noticed:

1) Anyone who complains about the behavior of a "newbie dweeb" who wouldn't fight when the complainer tried to jump him with a 262 or F4U-4 and a 5k alt advantage needs a good whap to the head with a clue-by-four. You think newbs flying uber planes is the problem? Well, when was the last time you saw a newb in a 262 or Tempest? Of course most of the vets don't stick with perked planes all the time, but if the newbie is getting slammed by much superior planes every so often, how can you blame him for taking the best ride he can, looking to fight at an advantage, and running when he doesn't have one? What else does every 262 do?

If you don't fight how can you learn to fight? If im in a P40 and a couple of spit jump me I'm going to give it all I have. If I didn't want to fight I wouldn't play this game. Too many people hide in the hordes.


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2) In a similar vein, if you're that good of an experienced vet, instead of whining about how "these kids today" - the ones with the .05 k/d ratio - aren't taking on a bigger challenge, why don't YOU look at it as a challenge for yourself? They don't play the way you want? Well, you don't play the way THEY want. Why do you think you're right and they're wrong? And if you're such a good pilot and they're such pathetic ones, why can't you beat them when they have alt and numbers?

They are shot down in huge numbers ...look at the k/d  :rolleyes: However if they step outside the horde and learn a few maneuvers that might get better, and have more fun. I always though living longer and getting more kills was a LOT more fun than dieing 5 times to ever kill I could get.


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3) 90% of this stuff boils down to SA. SA was by far the most important skill for a pilot in WW2, every top ace I know of said it was THE secret to their success. I understand that the game is not a strategic simulation, that base taking is just a frame to make battles happen, but saying the game is all about ACM and 1-1 duels to the exclusion of everything else is ridiculous. Everything here - incoming hordes vs. a few defenders, getting bounced from 10k up, getting picked and gangbanged, enemies running away when they lose the advantage - is a tactical scenario that every WW2 pilot had to face, and dealing with them was every bit as much a part of the pilot's skill set as ACM and gunnery, as was teamwork. No, this isn't a war or even a war simulation, but if you're trying to simulate the tactics, skills, and technical challenges of flying WW2 fighters, 1-1 co-e duels are a poor way to do it.

blah blah blad WWII blah blah blah. This isn't WWII ! its a game Yes SA is important, but if someone looks out over their wing and see 3 guys chasing a lone enemy they are not thinking" ah ha !!! I'm going to test this guys SA !" No too many people lookat it as an easy kill IF they can get there before the others.

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4) Because of # 3, I like the game the way it is now a heck of a lot more than I'd like it the way some here seem to want it - essentially, just a bunch of DAs. I'm glad to have a decent co-e 1-1 fight sometimes, but I'd get bored very quickly if that's all there was.

From this comment I get the feeling that in most cases of a 1 vs 1 you end up on the losing side too often. To me it sounds like you have given up on being a good fighter and so feel saver in the horde. I have no idea who you are, and I'm not bashing you here, but thats just the way it sounds to me. People suggesting more combat, and you disagreeing with that.

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5) Two things that are worse than anything anyone here is complaining about: alt-monkeys and whole-country gangbangs.

Alt-monkeys are worse because you can't avoid them. If you don't like 40-plane base captures, just fly somewhere else from where they're attacking. At any given time there are always going to be more people not doing that than doing it, and the ones doing it are all concentrated on 1 or 2 bases. But you can't avoid the alt-monkeys (there always seem to be 1 or 2 everywhere), you can't fight them if they won't commit, and you know if you try to fight someone else you'll just get picked. And who wants to spend 90% of their stick time just climbing, climbing, climbing? (Apparently some people...)

Alt monkeys are easy, fly low to middle alt and they will see you from their high perches. Of course you have to be able to fight if your flying down there or each flight is a couple minutes climb out a turn or two and your in the tower. Avoiding a Alt Monkeys passes are as easy to avoid as the HO, it just takes a little practice at a maneuver or two.


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The country gangbangs are bad because they don't just offer an alternative to fighting, they make it all but impossible. It's one thing to fight against the odds, but another when you've got 2-1 odds or worse everywhere on the map and, as if that isn't enough, escorted raids of 3, 4, 5 Lanc boxes at 20,000 feet porking every field within 30 miles of the front. It's all fine getting a big local advantage, but what's the fun of making it impossible for the other side to put up a fight anywhere on the map? And in a 3-player game the whole ENY system is just pointless, because the advantage depends on the interaction of the countries more than the raw numbers for any one of them. Getting slammed everywhere while still having a 20 ENY is just ridiculous.

From this comment my guess is your a Knight, and a dedicated one at that (won't switch countries). It happens to every side. The think you have to do is play your game. Your looking at it like you have to win the war before you log off that night. Whats wrong with holding a base or two along the front for the night? Of course we could use your "Thats the way it was in WWII", but seeing as the side were never even in the war that doesn't fly so well.

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5) Vulching uppers is establishing local air superiority. Vulching people trying to land is just pathetic (assuming that "vulching" = going in on a new target, not finishing off someone you were already fighting). What are you hoping to accomplish?

Call it what ever you want, its cheap kills. Horde mentality. Establishing local air superiority is having enough air support that any one trying to fly out of the ack coverage doesn't stand much of a chance. Of course that means knowing how to fight again, learning those pesky maneuvers to shot down a MANEUVERING plane

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6) Has it occurred to you that that guy is "hiding in ack" because he knows if he doesn't he'll get slammed by someone from 10k up before he can get any speed and alt to fight? Because that's what happened to him within 10 seconds the last three times he left the ack? If you're complaining because you can't find anyone willing to enter a "fair fight," come down to his alt and burn off some e, then see if he'll come out of the ack. Or back off a couple of miles and let him come up. (And if someone in a faster plane goes through ack to lose you, all he's really doing is saving you both the bother of a 10-minute race you won't win anyway. If he's in a slower plane, you should have killed him before he got there, and if you don't want to deal with his ack, what are you doing so close it to begin with?)

I don't have a problem with people getting some alt and some speed in the ack. If they don't want to come out why are they bothering to come up there in the first place. Also, if he's getting hammered as soon as he steps out he might want to learn a think about air superiority. As mentioned above, it the enemy has it ack ain't going to save you. Up from another field and start your counter attack.

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7) Just don't tune to 200 unless you're amused by it. And if you do find it amusing, why complain about it?

F### the forum. Just fly.

That's all the ranting I can do today.  :furious    :cry    :rolleyes:    :salute

It sounds to me you like it the way it is because you don't want to, or think you can't learn to survive with out your mega squad behind you, or at least hiding in the horde. The horde doesn't think strategically much so here's a tip. Next time the knights....or your country is getting ganged, you and a couple of your buddies up in some ponies, or 38s something with some long legs. Add a couple of bomb and up from a base 1 back from the front line. Climb to alt... at least 15k, and go behind enemy lines. There dive bomb the troops at each base along the front until all of you run out of bombs. If done correctly, you can stop the advancement along a whole front for more than an hour even when your out numbered.

To many people don't know "how" to play the game, they are too wrapped up in winning at all cost, HOin, hording, ganging, and running from the fights.

Offline kilo2

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #107 on: February 24, 2009, 04:45:26 PM »
iam a "newer" stick and iam going to put my 2 cents but something i have found is newer sticks thoughts really dont matter in MA and i bet in this forum. As a noob you get the game load it in and expect to just pick a plane and take off and see a guy and shoot him he dies. thats what you think is going to happen. Now what really does happen is you get on and have no clue how to do any thing my first flight was getting off the runway really took me a minute to find the right keys and get everything set. I asked questions no answer that seems to be a theme vet sticks dont help they just lol call you a noob or dont respond say go to the training channel even though no ones in there. anyway you get up you SEE your first enemy and he may be 5k up but you know no better and you try to climb to him stall out and get hammered in maybe the first 10 secs of real combat. you do things like that for a week or two and you start to only get into massive furballs where you arent the main target so maybe you can get your first kill by having a guy turn in front of you or something. I see no shame in this at that stage your still learning how to shoot. Now ganging a guy is the same you still mabye thirsting for your first kill as you didnt get this game for the scenery or the flying time. All these things the new guys do to learn things for them selfs people say that you learn nothing but coming into this game you know little to nothing so EVERY flight is a learning experience. Iam tired of the "vets" complaining about the new guys when they do nothing to help they dont care they stick with there vet buddies laughing at the noobs as they do something silly and dont tell the new guy what he did wrong all you "vets" should be the leaders of your countries people to go to to get help if you need it. i think if you helped a new guy instead of whining about there newbie tactics this would change.

Get up be a part of the solution instead of the problem. The learning curve in this game is huge and until you vets step up these tactic will keep on as they seem the most viable options for new pilots
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Offline FiLtH

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2009, 04:55:47 PM »
 Most of the "vets" i know are nice people in the game. There are lots who have played a long time and run off at the mouth, but I dont consider them vets. They have just played long enough to get better at the game than others, and like to hear themselves talk.

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Offline Vudak

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #109 on: February 24, 2009, 04:59:14 PM »
iam a "newer" stick and iam going to put my 2 cents but something i have found is newer sticks thoughts really dont matter in MA and i bet in this forum. As a noob you get the game load it in and expect to just pick a plane and take off and see a guy and shoot him he dies. thats what you think is going to happen. Now what really does happen is you get on and have no clue how to do any thing my first flight was getting off the runway really took me a minute to find the right keys and get everything set. I asked questions no answer that seems to be a theme vet sticks dont help they just lol call you a noob or dont respond say go to the training channel even though no ones in there. anyway you get up you SEE your first enemy and he may be 5k up but you know no better and you try to climb to him stall out and get hammered in maybe the first 10 secs of real combat. you do things like that for a week or two and you start to only get into massive furballs where you arent the main target so maybe you can get your first kill by having a guy turn in front of you or something. I see no shame in this at that stage your still learning how to shoot. Now ganging a guy is the same you still mabye thirsting for your first kill as you didnt get this game for the scenery or the flying time. All these things the new guys do to learn things for them selfs people say that you learn nothing but coming into this game you know little to nothing so EVERY flight is a learning experience. Iam tired of the "vets" complaining about the new guys when they do nothing to help they dont care they stick with there vet buddies laughing at the noobs as they do something silly and dont tell the new guy what he did wrong all you "vets" should be the leaders of your countries people to go to to get help if you need it. i think if you helped a new guy instead of whining about there newbie tactics this would change.

Get up be a part of the solution instead of the problem. The learning curve in this game is huge and until you vets step up these tactic will keep on as they seem the most viable options for new pilots

People aren't whining about "new" players in the sense of people who have just found these games a few months ago.  They're whining about "new" in the generational sense.  To give you some perspective, I've been playing these games for close to 11 years and I am still relatively "new" to the genre.

As far as no one helping you...  Honestly, I don't think you've looked hard enough or in the right places.  There are a great many players willing to help anyone that's willing to learn.  However, the sort of person who has the patience and skill to help a first-week, first-time-flightsim new guy who hasn't read the manual is very rare.  The more basic knowledge you can bring to a lesson, the greater the supply of helpers available to you.
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Offline moot

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #110 on: February 24, 2009, 05:00:41 PM »
iam a "newer" stick and iam going to put my 2 cents but something i have found is newer sticks thoughts really dont matter in MA and i bet in this forum. As a noob you get the game load it in and expect to just pick a plane and take off and see a guy and shoot him he dies. thats what you think is going to happen. Now what really does happen is you get on and have no clue how to do any thing my first flight was getting off the runway really took me a minute to find the right keys and get everything set. I asked questions no answer that seems to be a theme vet sticks dont help they just lol call you a noob or dont respond say go to the training channel even though no ones in there. anyway you get up you SEE your first enemy and he may be 5k up but you know no better and you try to climb to him stall out and get hammered in maybe the first 10 secs of real combat. you do things like that for a week or two and you start to only get into massive furballs where you arent the main target so maybe you can get your first kill by having a guy turn in front of you or something. I see no shame in this at that stage your still learning how to shoot. Now ganging a guy is the same you still mabye thirsting for your first kill as you didnt get this game for the scenery or the flying time. All these things the new guys do to learn things for them selfs people say that you learn nothing but coming into this game you know little to nothing so EVERY flight is a learning experience. Iam tired of the "vets" complaining about the new guys when they do nothing to help they dont care they stick with there vet buddies laughing at the noobs as they do something silly and dont tell the new guy what he did wrong all you "vets" should be the leaders of your countries people to go to to get help if you need it. i think if you helped a new guy instead of whining about there newbie tactics this would change.

Get up be a part of the solution instead of the problem. The learning curve in this game is huge and until you vets step up these tactic will keep on as they seem the most viable options for new pilots
Kilo the Training Arena, Official Trainers, and Duel Arena are made for new players.  There's also an AH Wiki, and if you have feedback on that, it's welcome as well.. Suggestions on what you, as a new player, expect to see there.

The problem with asking questions in the MA is most likely that you (general you) come off as not having made any effort to look for answers on your own.  Players in the MA simply can't hold your hand to lead you through everything.. AH is a game with a learning curve that's often steep and that lasts for years. Decades for some. It's also that the players are busy playing, incredible as that might seem.  It's an engaging game.  You often just can't afford distractions, nevermind taking your hands off the controls to type line after line (notice the text buffer input is fairly limited) of explaining... When it's all already neatly packaged on e.g. the Trainers' website.

There's also clinics.  They're usually advertized in the Help & Training forum, and in fact there's one tonight.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258846.0.html
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #111 on: February 24, 2009, 05:01:53 PM »
Kilo, most of the questions noobs have that don't get answered are not answered because the information is all there if someone would just do a little reading and prep work before they enter the arenas.

edit: like moot says.
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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2009, 05:16:26 PM »
Kilo the Training Arena, Official Trainers, and Duel Arena are made for new players.  There's also an AH Wiki, and if you have feedback on that, it's welcome as well..

I'll take this opportunity to deliver the short version of my favorite AH2 complaint: this game REALLY needs a manual. A manual isn't going to teach people how to fly or fight, but it would address the myriad "How do I...?" questions that come up because the help files are so hopelessly incomplete and disorganized that the newbie *might* - or might not - be lucky enough to find an answer if he logs off and spends two or three hours slogging through them.

Yeah, everyone should read the help files, I did (and spent some time in offline training) before I ever logged on, but no one is going to remember all of them even after two or three read-throughs, and the big advantage with a decent manual is being able to quickly find something you know you've read before when you need to revisit it (like in flight).

Given the amount of time and effort HTC put into this game you'd think a simple pdf manual with everything under one "cover" wouldn't be much trouble in comparison. But I've noticed that computer games have gone further and further from the concept of meaningful, comprehensive game manuals over the last two decades. (With tabletop games the manual *has* to be thorough, because it has to serve as the game engine as well as the how-to guide for players.)

Offline Bronk

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2009, 05:35:21 PM »
I'll take this opportunity to deliver the short version of my favorite AH2 complaint: this game REALLY needs a manual. A manual isn't going to teach people how to fly or fight, but it would address the myriad "How do I...?" questions that come up because the help files are so hopelessly incomplete and disorganized that the newbie *might* - or might not - be lucky enough to find an answer if he logs off and spends two or three hours slogging through them.

Yeah, everyone should read the help files, I did (and spent some time in offline training) before I ever logged on, but no one is going to remember all of them even after two or three read-throughs, and the big advantage with a decent manual is being able to quickly find something you know you've read before when you need to revisit it (like in flight).

Given the amount of time and effort HTC put into this game you'd think a simple pdf manual with everything under one "cover" wouldn't be much trouble in comparison. But I've noticed that computer games have gone further and further from the concept of meaningful, comprehensive game manuals over the last two decades. (With tabletop games the manual *has* to be thorough, because it has to serve as the game engine as well as the how-to guide for players.)
Huh never noticed the "web page help" conveniently placed on the clipboard. :rolleyes:
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Offline ScatterFire

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2009, 05:49:15 PM »
Huh never noticed the "web page help" conveniently placed on the clipboard. :rolleyes:
Yep.  But many of us hate reading online text, plus while you are learning you have to write down shortcuts, etc on a piece of paper until you get them memorized/set your own up.

A manual you can download, in PDF format, would go a long ways to helping newer players learn the game.  And if they print parts, they can even learn things while not able to get online.  Or maybe even looking up things without having to alt-tab out to the website just to remember what key opens your chute  ;)
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2009, 06:08:57 PM »
Yea because copy and paste is also way to difficult. :noid
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #116 on: February 24, 2009, 06:10:52 PM »
kilo2 your complaining about the very same people the rest of us are. You know why you didn't get any reasonable answers? Because most of the people flying today don't know the answers ! They have just stumble through and think they are the top dogs. Most of the vets log on and off quickly. Experience shows that the map type, or the way its sitting isn't going to show much fun and they move on either to another arena, or another game. I can say I've only seen one time some one asked about something in the game in the last few months, and I gave the answer to the best of my knowledge. I've been on the "help" channel of the radio and tried to help some, but even tho they are tuned, they don't want the help. Like you said, there is a big learning curve, but taking the time to learn it has it rewards!

Those of you complaining about the lack of a manual, there is a key on every keyboard I've ever seen, its called "print screen". Even if you can't figure out how to cut and paste, you can figure out how to hit that key. You may have to hit it a bunch of times to get all the information you want, but it does work !

Offline ScatterFire

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #117 on: February 24, 2009, 06:13:25 PM »
Yea because copy and paste is also way to difficult. :noid
The point isn't the "work around", the point is that most other games provide it. 

Newbies are looking for those things. *I* look for those things.  Easy access to the rules/controls/ideas go a lot farther than any forum post or web site.  Frustration and work arounds can have them leave before they even know how good the game is.
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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #118 on: February 24, 2009, 06:19:57 PM »
Huh never noticed the "web page help" conveniently placed on the clipboard. :rolleyes:

Sure, you have the technical ability to look things up while in the game, but what I'm saying is if it's going to take you an hour to find what you're looking for, or if what you're looking for just isn't in the help files at all, that doesn't do you much good, does it?

Ever play (original) Squad Leader?

Offline ScatterFire

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Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #119 on: February 24, 2009, 06:20:07 PM »
kilo2 your complaining about the very same people the rest of us are. You know why you didn't get any reasonable answers? Because most of the people flying today don't know the answers ! They have just stumble through and think they are the top dogs.
You don't see any relation to lack of knowledge and lack of readily available information?

I found it funny, the "but even tho they are tuned" section.  Tuning the radio and using it is probably the largest reason that newer players don't ask for help  ;)
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Those of you complaining about the lack of a manual, there is a key on every keyboard I've ever seen, its called "print screen". Even if you can't figure out how to cut and paste, you can figure out how to hit that key. You may have to hit it a bunch of times to get all the information you want, but it does work !
Or you can do what I did and use a crawler program that went through the entire help site and turned it into a PDF.  That doesn't retract from the point that it should already be available, without the potential user having to do it themselves.
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With bullets of rubber and armor of tissue I throw myself at my enemy.

Law of Devine Intervention:
All skill is in vain when an Angel pees in the touchhole of your musket.