Author Topic: Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?  (Read 2989 times)

B-Town

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Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2000, 12:43:00 PM »
Please don't put RCAF markings on my lancaster   I am a Brit incase you had not noticed and I really would be kinda anoyed if the lanc had RCAF markings instead of RAF markings. Give the mozzie or a spit RCAF markings. But not my lancaster

Sorrow[S=A]

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Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2000, 09:20:00 PM »
OK EYE, this is my last post on this topic, it's obvious that you are willing to argue through your teeth about him, and that in your eyes he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

  Your pretty rambly so I will try and just address the things that stood out. (PS please use enter after every few sentences, a wall of words makes it harder for me to follow you)

Godfrey: As far as I know no-one ever called him a coward, he stuck buerling in tail end in the 403 because he trusted buerling's skill. Tail end is rather hard to describe it- they were flying in a finger 4 by the time buerling got back to them after malta. He merely had the last, and highest position in the group.
  In the first tour Buerling did he was tail end because he was a new pilot. As the riskiest spot in a formation it was the one the older guys wanted least. Everyone pulled their time in it, by the point Buerling was there JeJ was allready reforming new tactics along with godfrey. This wasn't flown as formation because they hated Buerling or because godfrey was a coward..  it was the SOP of the time. everyone flew it not just them. The time frame is tricky (any help spitfry affectionado's of the BoB?) but Buerling arrived just at the end of the "Vic" formation as standard.

  Buerling DID help folks. Resentfully. No-one called him a willing teacher, he wanted to fly and kill things not teach new pilots. But damn, once they got him talking he taught them some damn fine stuff!

Wingmen: A comparison of his diary and some general info shows that from the time he started flying at Malta until the point where no-one would fly with him anymore he lost 16 pilots that were in his wing. This was in approx 6 months. Many many more were left alone and lost him in the fights. His fault was not that THEY didn't stick close enough or that they didn't try and follow him- usually he just peeled off and dropped before they saw him leave. Then they couldn't find him again and were left calling him on the radio and trying to understand a meelee below them.

  A case in point of this was on his second england tour, the reason why JeJ told him to leave his wing and never come back to active duty. On a flight over france 3 groups of fighters met 190's at moderately high altitude. As they engaged the fighters (roughly co-alt) Buerlings wingman heard him say "i'm a goner" or words to that effect. Looked around and realized he was gone without a trace.
  Not knowing what happenned he was reported as MIA on return. Turns out he saw a 190 10k below him as they entered the fight and put is IX into a steep dive to try for it without telling anyone. Since the IX was faster than his V he had to pull out from a high G dive. The force ripped bolts from his wingmounts and turned his eyes blood red.
  He did this kind of stuff ALL THE TIME!

As for haeslin, the two of them were bloody lone wolf types. They didn't really fly any wingman tactics, just hunted together. Would have been fun to watch but hardly indicative of his general behaviour.

  And yes, if they had of just figured out he was not working out the way they wanted and let him hunt like they did earlier RAF aces Buerling would have done fine. Unfortunatly he didn't have the capacity to get people to like him enough to let him do that.
  (BTW 8 on 1? where the hell are you getting that? he would have never run against those numbers unless he had a superior position..  in which case the numbers are pointless)

BTW Pongo I am not really that hard on him, he was a real puzzling personality. Amazingly good and deadly yet despicable cold blooded killer wrapped up in a church boy who was too shy to say much. But I don't like seeing folks hero worship him either- he wasn't much of a hero. Most of my stuff came from a comparison research of him and billy bishop &  collishaw. The similarities between all of them are mind boggling...  yet he stands far far out from the others. He was the same but so disturbingly different.

eye

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Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2000, 11:20:00 PM »
 Another excellent post. I do not hero worship beurling. His tactics as put down in malta spitfire and explained in hero the buzz Beurling story+many other books have helped me in my flight sim carrier. In fact few others including other lw aces put down as much of their tactics for us flight simers to follow. Anyone who wants to improve should check him out. Hartmann and rene fonch <-- mistake are the others who have formed my style of fighting.

JJ didnt say out of my wing he left 127 before that. It was in 412 that the incident happened. And Beurling got his flight in position above a lw formation and said "Get into him boys". Then he made a mistake and went after a low 190. A cardinal sin to those who preached formation flying. The leader was suposed to stay back and direct the battle.
Why did he not know the difference between a 5 and a 9 in a dive? Because his Co would not let him fly one he was under disapline. Beurling liked to practice. He got little time  in a mk 9. He flew 5's at the gunnery school he was at. He was forced to fly a tiger moth not to harrass the local towns folk or to bug his co. He did it to practice. Rember he was a pro he wanted to keep sharp. Beurling what ever you might think about him was this. Focused on one goal since he was a kid. Simply to be canada's ace of aces.

Where do you get he lost 16 wingman thats totaly wrong. Ive read about malta and i bet 16 guys were not lost in all of 249 during that time. All couldent be his fault.
If your winging with a guy and you cant keep up its your fault you die. As a wing man you follow. My guess from what ive read is 5 guys died while flying with him in a flight of 4. Against 27 kill 9 probables 3 damaged thats great.

As far as tactics changeing finger four or vic last man gets hit first. Period! That guy was trying to kill him puting him last. Also you think a lw guy is going to hit and run the low formation? No way Then you get all the rest coming down on you. He put him in the tail end charlie position.
 
Its obvious you know your stuff im not going to change your opinion but you must rember. This guy had alot of people who wanted his spot. The big cheese. He was as big a star as tom cruse in 1943 44. Its part of the canadian psyche to try to bring down those who are elevated back down to the group.Aussies do this to. Both are irreverant to those in authority or who have elevated status. Beurling has suffered this fate for over 50 yrs.  Hes a forgoton hero. Yes i said that for all his flaws he was a great fighter pilot. Thats all he ever worked for. That he will never win a popularity contest with those that lived a ripe long life does not matter. The fact is he was number 1 they cant take that away lol
P.S. the sad fact is as far as the best in ww2 id take any of the top 150 lw aces over him skill for skill. He was great for a allied pilot but never had the number of sorties to become a truly great fighter pilot like the lw guys.

funked

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Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2000, 11:54:00 PM »
OK Smartasses, stop arguing and give me some books titles to read.  I'm a Luftwaffe nut but I'm trying to learn about RAF fighter pilots and units, particularly post-Battle of Britain.  I've noted Gatt's selections, now give me some titles so I can run up my credit card at Amazon.com.  

eye

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Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2000, 12:48:00 AM »
Hero <The buzz beurling story>. Malta spit fire. Osprey has a great line of books on the aces. I recomend these highly. Anything on Beurling would be in the spit mk v aces book. Spitfire the canadians in 2 volumes are a nice book set. The first is better. The osprey catalog is where its at in my opinion. I plan on getting them all. If i were you i would find a used book store i found 1 on a trip to san diego and got 15 books for 16 bucks. <-- single best investment i ever made hours of fun + great info.

Sorrow[S=A]

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Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2000, 02:54:00 AM »
Wing Leader by J. Johnson, simply one of the best reccolections of the war around.

Unfortunatly, as I mentioned, most of my other stuff is copies of research done. This material is stored at the war archives in ottowa and toronto. A field trip there can yeild an astonishing amount of (crap) err information about canadian aviators.

Hmm, I actually own far less of the books I have read and cannot pull names easily Funked. However I will go over some of my bibliographies from college and see what I can fish out.

Offline gatt

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Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2000, 03:35:00 AM »
Funked, I'm looking into 1940-43 Mediterranean Theatre of ops. Other good books are:

 
 
   Not yet published
And, about 1940 dogfights over France (good for WWIIOL), another good one  :
 
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

funked

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Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2000, 03:56:00 AM »
Thanks gents!

Offline SKurj

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Canadians! Your choice for RCAF markings?
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2000, 12:03:00 PM »
Blue Skies
autobiography of a canadian spit pilot
Bill Olmsted
ISBN 0-7737-52313-7

Starts in Tunisia, and progresses from there

SKurj