Author Topic: Dropping Flaps??  (Read 24083 times)

Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #135 on: September 14, 2009, 05:11:49 PM »
Thor:
You are missing the point. It is not about the pure structure limit of the Flap , as AH current models ALL FLAPS we choose the pilots manual operational limit. So you are now choosing a test that has nothing to do with the pilots manual limit, but POSSIBLY a structural limit (I can not tell from the 1 sheet you posted) which is not what we choose to model.

Quote
what IMO you have lost in your more recent efforts that i have played as you have improved your offerings is the wonderful well defined envelopes of the aircraft modeled in AW, and the completely objective way the physics of flight treated the entire plane set. 

This is almost a completely comical post calling AW accurate in any way when it comes to the way planes fly.

HiTech




Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #136 on: September 14, 2009, 05:50:48 PM »
where did i say accurate RE-AW ?  i said well defined.  a good sim should be both.

as i am sure you know no single feature of these aircraft could fundamentally alter their envelopes so significantly as the combat flaps in your games can do currently.

my point RE the flight manuals is that you choose that to model the flaps in one regard "deployment speeds" per the flight manuals, but not in other regards like the operational restrictions on aerobatics as extreme deployments.  why is that?

as a result of your choice of criteria what you are left with are escort fighters that are often twice the weight competing in dogfights at minimal altitudes by use of flap settings which those same manuals expressly forbid.  
that type of flying, was extremely unlikely to result in anything other than a departure at low altitude and death for the pilot attempting it, which you choose not to represent.  these FMs achieving success vs light weight interceptors who should have all the advantages in those type of fights undermines the credibility you claim.  

as a result on the other hand you have a fighter with maneuver flaps that can not be deployed in the "flight" mode until it is at landing speed and well below the combat stall speeds that the flaps were designed to offset.  a setting which you know, or should know, was intended to be deployed at combat speeds and tested as such at those speeds.

yet you still sit here and try to defend your criteria for these decisions.

they are at the very least terribly short sighted.

i wish that you would see fit to reconsider those decisions for the sake of a better more immersive game.

no offense sir, but it is my points you are not seeing.

respectfully,

t
      
Thor:
You are missing the point. It is not about the pure structure limit of the Flap , as AH current models ALL FLAPS we choose the pilots manual operational limit. So you are now choosing a test that has nothing to do with the pilots manual limit, but POSSIBLY a structural limit (I can not tell from the 1 sheet you posted) which is not what we choose to model.

This is almost a completely comical post calling AW accurate in any way when it comes to the way planes fly.

HiTech




« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 05:54:09 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #137 on: September 14, 2009, 06:16:20 PM »
What are you smiling about Yeager? It's your fault I'm even involved in this thread... :rofl

No miracle involved...I was tired of the crappy flight models and terrains in WBs (and I got banned for saying so in their forums  :lol) so I jumped to AH.
well then, a belated warm welcome to you :)  They banned you from the iEN forums or the game?  the bastidges....
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #138 on: September 14, 2009, 06:37:22 PM »
Ok I looked through 9 pages of P-51 posts (sheesh)...most are technical data...small bugs that were addressed quickly...comparisons to other ac...but very few complaints about the AH handling/performance vs real life.

Do a search for Widewing's post on the matter.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #139 on: September 14, 2009, 07:10:39 PM »
Thor: Your last post , though still filled with hyperbole, is the first semi coherent statement you have made in this thread. It can be debated to change methods. But you have not even begun to touch all the issues involved in changing methodology.

But it is time for you to stop crap like this.

Quote
my point RE the flight manuals is that you choose that to model the flaps in one regard "deployment speeds" per the flight manuals, but not in other regards like the operational restrictions on aerobatics as extreme deployments.  why is that?

You make a statement you say to be fact so you can set up a straw man, Then ask us why we do so? 

Quote
yet you still sit here and try to defend your criteria for these decisions.

Again pure BS I have never said one word trying to defend our decision to use Flight Manual speeds in this thread. I simply stated it as fact.

HiTech


Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #140 on: September 14, 2009, 07:33:25 PM »
This is starting to sound like the few auto flap retracting feature threads that have been created in the past.  Which for the record, while I don't like the feature, I do support and understand HiTech's design decision to go with the auto-flaps.


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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #141 on: September 14, 2009, 10:08:42 PM »
ok well a good part of this thread has been figuring out how to approach my concerns in a manner you can more easily consider constructive.  

i am not exactly sure how to approach these things still, but i will try and set aside the diversions and state that ...

i have reason to believe the methodology in the decision making about the flaps relative to their deployment speeds may have caused some unintentional inconsistencies in some aircraft relative to other planes in the set, as well as other historical data which i have posted earlier in this thread.  
i hope you will look at the sheet i have posted and consider the implications of the information it contains compared to the situation in the game.  i will continue to look for information on this issue and bring it to your attention as i find it.

no offense and please disregard any expressions of angst i may have displayed earlier as similar situations in other games have made this a difficult topic, and i was unfortunately distracted from my intention by some comments early on in this discussion.  

if there is anything i can do to help you along with this issue please let me know and i will do what i can to help.  

i am already looking around for the complete trial where that page came from and i am hoping i will be able to produce that soon.  i am also looking for more information in general as this subject interests me very much.  best of luck with the new version of AH. other than, and or in spite of, some consequences of the issues i brought up i am enjoying my time in your game very much.

i am looking forward to more productive conversations with you in the future, and hopefully some effect in the game from those efforts.

sincerely and respectfully.

richard boswell
(thoraw, thorwb, -thor-, thorsim --- 159BK, <?>, =<LR>=, JG-51, JG-27, JG-Amerika-EMC, II-JG-27 AH)  

a fan of your games ...

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 t

Thor: Your last post , though still filled with hyperbole, is the first semi coherent statement you have made in this thread. It can be debated to change methods. But you have not even begun to touch all the issues involved in changing methodology.

But it is time for you to stop crap like this.

You make a statement you say to be fact so you can set up a straw man, Then ask us why we do so?  

Again pure BS I have never said one word trying to defend our decision to use Flight Manual speeds in this thread. I simply stated it as fact.

HiTech


« Last Edit: September 14, 2009, 10:20:04 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #142 on: September 15, 2009, 09:37:57 AM »
oops edit mistake, i thought i could say the below better but i discovered there is a time limit on modifications ...

as well as conflicting with other historical data which i have posted earlier in this thread.  

sorry for the unintended bump ...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 11:13:48 AM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #143 on: September 15, 2009, 09:55:50 AM »
Thor:

To begin with think about what you wish.  This is not a data discussion, this is simply a game play discussion. At my first glance I can think of 3 methods of flap choices.

1. Try model the real structure limit, (this will at best be a guess, because very few planes flaps were tested to the breaking point). Other issues that come to mind are not just structure limits, but moving force limits. It will be almost impossible to find this type of data on very many planes.

2. Model as we do now, implementing the pilot manual flap speed limitations.

3. Make some assumptions and guesses that different methodologies were used when writting manuals, and then try to model all flaps as if the manuals were all written with the same mythology.


I would say method 1 is pretty much a no go simply because people would push flaps far beyond what most pilots would in the war and hence the fights would not resemble much of real world fights.

 #2 has possibilities but also very quickly becomes open to interpretation.

Thor, if you wish to know how to approach this, approach it from facts and game play, not from a desire to change 1 plane. How to approach me is simple, assume I have the desire to make an accurate game, assume I can make mistakes, but will always fix mistakes if I can. Try your best to look at modeling from a wide perspective of issues, not just 1 issue from 1 view point.

W,aker in a thread on the brewster is a good example,
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,273833.0.html

 he points out problems and tries to find data, but does not demand it be fixed and does not make any assumptions about how we do not like the Brewster and hence did not model it correctly.

HiTech




Offline thorsim

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #144 on: September 15, 2009, 10:17:10 AM »
would it be reasonable to work a compromise where there is very good reason to believe that some of the operators handbooks do not reflect the design limits as much as other operators handbooks on other aircraft.  

which  seems to be the case with the german handbooks on the 190 and 109.
(i know these are specific but my time in your game is limited and these are the planes in which i have noticed this issue)

for example the data i showed was a 10 degree limit at 400+mph, the pilot book limits were as far as i can tell from what is posted here says little under 200 mph.  

do you think it would be reasonable to say "split the difference" in the two sources and settle on a number of around 300 mph or so?

because i am more than  happy to look towards a solution, however that would be very discouraging if you feel that the method or criteria should not be adjusted.

that is providing i make my case to a satisfactory degree in your opinion, or pyro's opinion.

as i think even a compromise number will probably be enough to avoid the problem that imo currently exists with the 190s where you can not adjust the flaps until you are in real danger of stalling, which is really the point where this situation gets to be the most disturbing.

i will take your suggestions about how i should think of your outlook on these matters.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 01:14:30 PM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Timofei

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #145 on: September 15, 2009, 10:24:54 AM »
AH current models ALL FLAPS we choose the pilots manual operational limit.

The Ta 152 manual I've got says that full flaps are to be deployed for landing at a speed between 200-135 mph, whereas in the game full flaps are only allowed from 150 mph (and first notch at 180 mph).  Anyone know why that would be?  Seems like a good example for Thorsim.  (I'm betting Pyro and anyone else involved knows the exact construction limits - strange that the manual says otherwise though (or the manual I have is wrong))

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Offline hitech

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #146 on: September 15, 2009, 01:40:08 PM »
would it be reasonable to work a compromise where there is very good reason to believe that some of the operators handbooks do not reflect the design limits as much as other operators handbooks on other aircraft.  

It is a valid premises and is what I was saying in option #3.

Quote
do you think it would be reasonable to say "split the difference" in the two sources and settle on a number of around 300 mph or so?

I have no idea if this is or is not reasonable.
Is this only an example?
I really have no idea with out the other papers surrounding your 1 data sheet how the data was created? 
What are we suppose to do with the other 100 aircraft we have?
How do we choose speeds for aircraft with other sheets?
Where does the 109E fall in strength of flap design as compared to other aircraft.
Do we now need to move all the other aircraft also?

These are just a few of the questions that are raised by wanting to change our current way of choosing speeds. Note, I again did not say it can not be changed, I am really just wanting to show you that you can not look at one plane in isolation.

As I said earlier. You wish to discuss this, start thinking about the entire system and how it will effect all planes when you ask questions like is it reasonable.

HiTech








Offline Gaston

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #147 on: September 15, 2009, 02:39:45 PM »
   I think what is being overlooked here is the useability of flaps in actual combat: It is a grey area that shows large inconsistencies according to aircraft type in actual combat reports; it is not all an issue of pilot proficiency or inclination. Some aircrafts do like to use flaps a lot in real-life combat (most prominently of all the P-51!), some don't (like the Me-109, Spitfire and P-47).

   I think what is not realized is that the effectiveness of the flaps is greatly diminished by the deceleration they create in real-life: In a test against the Oscar I, the P-38J's flaps actually slowed down the P-38's speed enough to make the Oscar gain MUCH faster, but that reflects the Oscar's lack of speed retention in a far smaller turn radius: Against a Me-109G there might be a short-term turn gain with flaps because here a turn radius advantage can become for a short while more important than the sustained turn performance...

   Surprisingly enough, at 20 000 feet exactly, and at a wide range of speeds (150 to 300 MPH ias), IF altitude was maintained in flat turns, the Oscar would NOT gain on a P-38J, as long as the P-38 did NOT use its flaps... Any altitude loss while turning would instantly help the Oscar's puny engine and gain the Oscar a big turning advange... (The Oscar1's level turn advantage disappeared above 19 000 ft, but always remained in a downward spiral.)

   I agree with Thorsim using the flight manual as the final word is not realistic, but using the structural limit might not reflect the way flaps were actually used either. On the 109 flaps were slow to deploy manually, and on the P-47 they seemed not to have been much used except for the deliberate purpose of slowing down, but not actually turning as such...

  I think the ability to sustain speed in turns, similar amoung many types, should determine the useability of flaps at higher speeds, so that all aircrafts are treated on an even footing: I think Thorsim's idea of a midway between the Pilot's Manual's 200 MPH limit and the 400 MPH structural limit is a good idea, allowing variations for the limiting reality of slow manual deployment on some types, and maybe giving a high speed deployment advantage to some types that display unusually good speed retention in turns at high speed because of their inherent aerodynamic slickness.

  The only reason the P-51 is sometimes quoted as using flaps at 400 MPH while most other types don't, is that the Mustang's surprisingly good speed retention in turns (compared to its so-so climb rate) made the speed loss of 10° of flaps seem less onerous to the pilot compared to other types. Yet certainly the FW-190A could use flaps to some advantage up to 300 MPH, as pilots often did. Beyond that speed, the FW-190A was a poorer turner and had less acceleration in turns than many other types, and in actual combat the flaps were then most often used to slow down and try to trick the pursuer in slipping ahead...

  Still, the most common use of flaps for the Mustang is actually at medium to very low combat speeds, similar to most other types but maybe with a bigger gain since it is generally an inferior-turning aircraft at these speeds. In the word of a Polish pilot: "It helped the turn, but made the stall dangerous".

  I think it is a grey area and should be treated as such, and not defined by the cut-and-dried limits of a pilot's manual.

  In general flaps were not massively used in combat, even on the deck, except by the P-51 when it needed a brief catch-up at some risk... So if in a simulation they define relative turn performance for all aircrafts, it does sound odd.

   Gaston

  

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #148 on: September 15, 2009, 02:59:38 PM »
yea heaven forbid we discuss ...

realism in a sim ...

or

balance and fairness in a game ...

Kind of crass.
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Dropping Flaps??
« Reply #149 on: September 15, 2009, 03:03:49 PM »
Interesting and well written analysis gaston.  Your remarks that documented aircraft performance in sustained turns should be factored into the applicability to deploy flaps in-game is most intriguing and adds yet another wrinkle to previous postulations in this thread.

In reference to your post: Are you referring to your own experience online in AH, NACA flight test reports or other data, or do you have actual combat time in Ki-43s, 109s, P38s and P51s?

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