A-10 warthog too close to Brits.

[Stoney]

Whenever you have a weapons system with the lethality of the A-10 any mistake what-so-ever ends in tragedy.

I cannot take any military professional seriously that says fratricide is a "normal" part of war.  I know it happens, but it doesn't have to.  We'll probably have to agree to disagree on that.

To say the A-10 pilots make a "habit" of killing their own is disgusting on your part.

Perhaps habit was a poor choice of words, but there is a trend backed up with documented cases of fratricide or near-fratricide.  I didn't even list them all.  Again, I'll make the statement that I don't doubt the professionalism of the pilots and I don't think they're doing this willfully.  They just lack the training and familiarity with what's going on on the ground.

I can honestly say that the preferred aircraft for air support by ground forces is the A-10, despite what your experience in the USMC might have lead you to believe.

What branch, and what did you do?  You go ask a Marine infantryman whether he'd rather have an Air Force A-10 support him or a Marine F-18/AV8.  I've got some friends that will take exception to your contention.

"But Navy /USMC F-18 have less FF incidents" of course, they drop bombs, not fire cannon.  The A-10 is used at extreme close range where the harriers and hornets would never be used.

No.  You don't know how the Marine Corps trains or employs CAS if you make this statement.  Danger-close bombing missions and strafing were conducted by Marine fixed-wing.  Not to mention the two specific examples I mentioned involved Maverick missiles and not 30mm.

as far as the USAF lacking the warrior mentality, please click below.

 

I didn't say the USAF lacked a warrior mentality.  I used to drink with F-15 pilots when I was stationed in Okinawa, and those guys are shooters.  I said the Air Force lacks the mentality for CAS.  That's not the same.  Send the A-10s out by themselves to the kill box to run interdiction, they excel at that mission.  Air Force doctrine just doesn't lend itself to being a supporting arm.

[JunkyII]

Those guys have a habit of lighting up the wrong side.  A-10's are overrated for close air support, because the Air Force lacks the mentality, training and experience for the mission, and not because the aircraft isn't capable.  But I am prejudiced.

How are you prejudice sir? I wanna think your a helicopter pilot becase i know they dont like hogs, but im pretty sure that A10s have some of the best numbers as far as enemies killed, like its not closed to being matched by any other aircraft but i might be wrong, when we are on the ground we do look alot alike we like to use smoke to show who not to shoot at but what if the hog has no visual as to who is friend or foe, very hard to see the flag on a soldiers shoulder from 100 feet away image say 3000

[Wolfala]

I don't have skin in this thread, but since we are talking FF - lets take 2 examples of how it happens. You really need to go through the full chain of events from the sensor to shooter end to see how these things can happen. The first 2 links are, oddly enough from A-10 CAS aircraft who during OIF were working with a FAC trying to ID some GV's with Orange panels. They did turn out to be British, but pay attention to the comms by the FAC when the A-10s asked if there were any friendly ground assets in their box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK10pqBpz8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3THYnJ-PK6U

The second example is a USA AH-64 during the 1st Gulf War which was directed towards what was thought an enemy GV group. The data he was being relayed didn't match with what the computer was telling the pilot. Both cases are tragic, but its extemely important again to see how the shooters decision was made at the time. In the Apache's case, wind drift changed his perspective and track over the ground so it appeared he was looking at the bad guy - when the computer was telling him no diddlying way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8-wr8_qRBQ

Anyway, Stony - you know me well. I'm a C4ISR guy - you know my work history and who I worked for. I'm all about getting the right information to the right people at the right time.

[Spikes]

What branch, and what did you do?  You go ask a Marine infantryman whether he'd rather have an Air Force A-10 support him or a Marine F-18/AV8.  I've got some friends that will take exception to your contention.

Well, of course, Marines want their boys protecting them. That's a bias question and if you asked that to a Marine, you'd get a bias answer.

[pxdig]

STONEY,

I know you think you are qualified to speak for all USMC personnel.  I know you believe that insulting AF Pilots (and that part of the armed forces) makes you more loyal to your branch.  I have met marines that were the very definition of professionalism and I have met marines that were so blinded by the Hoorrraaahhhh attitide they instill in basic that they can bring themselves to admit anyone can do anything better than the corp.  I really hope someday you wake up and realize what combined arms means and what an insult to the boys in blue your posting is. 

Until then, if you think you can speak for all usmc, please refer to colkink post.  I listed it below for your easy access. 

I've seen the AIR FORCE a-10 work in person. I was a lvt'er(amtracker in the crotch err usmc).I am a die  hard jarhead. I thought after seeing that puppy work in person....."those a-10 pilots are as good as any cas supplyd by the corps" They hit exactly what we wanted smashed....1st pass......the army apache had just been brought online.....think it was 1983.... the army wanted to show us how "bad"  this new apache was......it was bad allright....he expended all ords....and didnt hit a damned thing......our usmc cobras.....(veitnam vintage)  then came and took care of business for us.... 1st pass....addational pass's  were just for our enjoyment I think

[Wolfala]

Pxdig,

The good Capt's(stoney) experience is that way because he lost troopers in his group to a FF incident in 2003 from an A-10. Pls understand. Just like I'd like you to understand when I say MANPADS have broken the back of air superiority below 13k - but then again my experience is tainted having lost a close friend from flight school - who happened to be the 5% pk for an SA-7 in November 2003 and was the first coalition aircraft loss of the war.

Lt brian slavenas - Peoria Illinois, ch-47

[Masherbrum]

I cannot take any military professional seriously that says fratricide is a "normal" part of war.  I know it happens, but it doesn't have to.  We'll probably have to agree to disagree on that.

Perhaps habit was a poor choice of words, but there is a trend backed up with documented cases of fratricide or near-fratricide.  I didn't even list them all.  Again, I'll make the statement that I don't doubt the professionalism of the pilots and I don't think they're doing this willfully.  They just lack the training and familiarity with what's going on on the ground.

What branch, and what did you do?  You go ask a Marine infantryman whether he'd rather have an Air Force A-10 support him or a Marine F-18/AV8.  I've got some friends that will take exception to your contention.

No.  You don't know how the Marine Corps trains or employs CAS if you make this statement.  Danger-close bombing missions and strafing were conducted by Marine fixed-wing.  Not to mention the two specific examples I mentioned involved Maverick missiles and not 30mm.
 

I didn't say the USAF lacked a warrior mentality.  I used to drink with F-15 pilots when I was stationed in Okinawa, and those guys are shooters.  I said the Air Force lacks the mentality for CAS.  That's not the same.  Send the A-10s out by themselves to the kill box to run interdiction, they excel at that mission.  Air Force doctrine just doesn't lend itself to being a supporting arm.

I guess when the USAF dropped Clusters on 300+ Iraqi's in the 1st Persian Gulf War to help the extraction of eight Green Berets, they were "just shooters"?    They were dropping them at distances that on paper, they shouldn't have lived.   But they did.    They were told to, by the Green Berets.   

Yes, this is on TV, but I read about this long before that.   

[Die Hard]

Beavis and Butthead joins the Air Force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMnyVioLJbs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1GDf2aN5YQ

"We're in jail dude!"

[Elfie]

No.  You don't know how the Marine Corps trains or employs CAS if you make this statement.  Danger-close bombing missions and strafing were conducted by Marine fixed-wing.  Not to mention the two specific examples I mentioned involved Maverick missiles and not 30mm.

One of those two specific examples you mentioned, I saw the video of that. The A-10 pilot in question asked the person on the ground repeatedly to verify the targets position. The person on the ground verified the target multiple times, so the A-10 pilot fired. This incident also happened at night and back then the A-10s had virtually no avionics installed. That incident was not the fault of the A-10 pilot, it was the fault of the person on the ground.

[MWL]

Greetings,

  As an Armor Co Cdr, I had the 'joy' of being supported by A-10s at the NTC.  They 'killed' more of my tanks than the OPFOR did in at least one of our fights.

  In fact, my Bn Cdr told the FSO and ALO, "Send 'em deep, or send 'em home."  AF does not do CAS.  They do engagement areas.

Regards,

[Rich46yo]

Well if were talking Gulf-1 then the odds were far higher friendly armor would take you out in a friendly fire incident.

Then there was that incident nobody remembers where the USMC A-6 Intruders fired a bunch of missiles 12 miles "inside" the no fire line and killed 8 Saudi friendlies, wounding 12. But everyone remembers the A-10 cause of the videos and the Brits putting up a stink, "rightfully so I suppose". And of course now there are so many USMC survivors of A-10 fire on the web they should start up their own club cause I guess Marines shooting Marines doesn't count.

Meanwhile the F-18 is a piece of crap for CAS due to its fuel load, loiter time, and the fact that one sheep herder and his one 7.62x39 can cost the US Taxpayer 40 million $ with one lucky shot. And I guess their going to fix all this with the 60 million per copy F-35B. Sounds to me like the USMC has its head up its arse.

I dont know what the breakdown has been since 2003 but its no secret our Helicopters aren't the answer. We've lost a lot of rotaries in Iraq and Afghanistan and have had a lot shot up, "like the Soviets before us". So they sure aren't the CAS answer. They are all headed in the wrong way altitude-wise to provide the close in support troops need. The simple fact is the A-10s are there because Fast movers and rotaries cant do the mission. A Brit. Apache shot up a whole bunch of their own troops last year too in Afghanistan. Didnt hear about that did ya? I guess the story couldn't sell the Times fast enough as one where Yank A-10s did the shooting.

Personally I think the Brit troops in this video, from the first post, should all lose a stripe for grab arseing when in combat. Then again they had the A-10 to blame should a ricochet had hit the one nitwit standing up with his video camera. Or the one continually babbling if anyone had "shart themselves".

[RTHolmes]

A Brit. Apache shot up a whole bunch of their own troops last year too in Afghanistan. Didnt hear about that did ya? I guess the story couldn't sell the Times fast enough as one where Yank A-10s did the shooting.

Yes we did - all FF incidents are widely reported. The reason this case got more media attention was because the US inquiry exonerated everyone from blame, the US govt then refused to release witnesses or any evidence for the UK inquiry. The cockpit recordings were leaked to the Sun newspaper, so the US govt was then forced to officially release the recordings for the inquiry. It was newsworthy because it was yet another piece of evidence illustrating the rubberstamp/coverup approach the US mil has to incidents like these.

[Rich46yo]

So what was the results of the "inquiry" into your own Apache incident?

As for the rest of your statements do you have any supportive evidence?

[RTHolmes]

I dont think the Apache inquiry has begun yet. The rest is all a matter of public record, feel free to use teh google.

[JunkyII]

I dont think the Apache inquiry has begun yet. The rest is all a matter of public record, feel free to use teh google.

Dont be hating on the Apache, it is by far the best helicopter in the world