A-10 warthog too close to Brits.

[jon]

http://www.ww2f.com/information-requests/30024-close-air-support.html
this link is to a forum discussing this topic but of wwII incedents. I find it hard to believe that with modern radios alone that it could have been worse now than then.  I would  think there must have been some sort of miscomunication to cause this. I really would not believe the navy a10 pilots are nothing more than a bunch of bungling idiots like some here seem to think they are.

[PanosGR]

navy A-10 pilots? don't think so. Air force operate the A-10s

[4deck]

A thats not a close call, this is a close call 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJgIsjs3_B4&NR=1
 In all seriousness though, Thank gawd no-one got killed there though.

[ghatfield]

Well, at least some of you have a clue...

I spent several years as a part of the A-10 program...as both military and civilian.  It was a while back, so it's possible some things have changed...but here's what I know to have been facts.

1.   Every active duty A-10 squadron had at least one (often 2 or 3) 'liason pilots'...army or marine fixed wing pilots.  They were involved in every mission...either flying or as a ground link between the pilots and the grunts / jarheads.  At that time, this was mandated...I suppose it could have changed but I doubt it since it was a very effective arrangement.

2.   The A-10 is unquestionably the best CAS platform in the inventory right now...that's why it's retirement was forestalled several years ago.  There is simply no other platform that can perform the task better (regardless of which branch the pilot serves with).

3.   Friendly fire is a fact of war...has been throughout recorded history...long before aircraft, missles or bombs were a factor.

During my time with the program I was honored to meet and work with hundreds of ground troops (both army and marine) and I never met a single one didn't love to see an A-10 overhead when the s**t was hitting the proverbial fan.  Every pilot I met (Army, USAF and Marine) absolutely adored the airplane...at that time they were lining up for a slot in an active squadron.

I don't normally involve myself in the discussions on these boards...but I take offense at the malignment of any combat pilot regardless of his branch of service or aircraft.  Those who have been involved in a FF incident are invariably devastated by it...many never fly in combat again. Unless you've actually flown in combat, you have no right to comment...you simply have no understanding of the forces at play.  Do you honestly think these guys are idiots who just use their weapons indiscriminately?  You figure Joe Pilot is just flying around looking for something to blow up...oops that one hit a marine!  No modern day combat pilot releases a weapon without confirmation of the target...typically from multiple sources.  In nearly every FF incident I've ever read about or been a party to it is found that the fault lies with poor intel or troops being out of position  rather than with the pilot who pulled the trigger.  There are exceptions...but not many.

 

[Rich46yo]

No wonder why Brits dont' like Americans. I would be p*ssed to though if that was me. A-10 might be overrated Stoney but you have to admit it is still one bad*** plane.

Hey theres a surprise. A "close support tactical aircraft" actually shooting near friendlies.

If you actually watched the video then you must have seen the 2nd drop and strafe was done in the same area of the first. The difference is it looked like they also dropped cluster which freaked the Brits out. They were in no danger.

If anyones at fault its the Bit infantry for sitting up and losing cover while filming their "Miss Daisey".

Absolutely--its killed more Americans in combat than any enemy aircraft since WWII.

Sounds like its Pie Hole time. Most of all when considering all the troops those aircraft saved.

If memory serves then it was an F-16 that dropped on those canucks and the Brit mav was fired by a Yank Helicopter.

Absolutely--its killed more Americans in combat than any enemy aircraft since WWII.

More Pie Hole action here? Forgot a few wars didntya?

[Dadsguns]

but I take offense at the malignment of any combat pilot regardless of his branch of service or aircraft.  Those who have been involved in a FF incident are invariably devastated by it...many never fly in combat again. Unless you've actually flown in combat, you have no right to comment...you simply have no understanding of the forces at play.  Do you honestly think these guys are idiots who just use their weapons indiscriminately?  You figure Joe Pilot is just flying around looking for something to blow up...oops that one hit a marine!  No modern day combat pilot releases a weapon without confirmation of the target...typically from multiple sources.  In nearly every FF incident I've ever read about or been a party to it is found that the fault lies with poor intel or troops being out of position  rather than with the pilot who pulled the trigger.  There are exceptions...but not many.

 

The inherently dangerous risk of Close Air Support during Combat can be measured by feet, these guys put ords on top of enemy positions even while friendlies are in Danger Close proximity, not as a norm, but when they have too. 
What would suprise you is how many times they have done so with No Casualties, or at least resulting in Death.

          Absolute crap!

I completely agree, just the sheer number of missions that have been completed successfully compared to the collaterel damage incurred is minimal. 
You can never get a 0% Risk factor in any weapon deployment system or technique.

[Jenks]

Those guys have a habit of lighting up the wrong side.  A-10's are overrated for close air support, because the Air Force lacks the mentality, training and experience for the mission, and not because the aircraft isn't capable.  But I am prejudiced.

          Absolute crap!

[Stoney]

Unless you've actually flown in combat, you have no right to comment...you simply have no understanding of the forces at play.  Do you honestly think these guys are idiots who just use their weapons indiscriminately?

I absolutely do have a right to comment, since one of my Marines got killed that day--but like I said, I'm prejudiced.  I read the complete investigation of the incident, and the Forward Air Controller involved sat in one of my classes not 6 months before the incident as I describe the procedures for requesting and coordinating CAS.  I've talked at length with the XO of the infantry company my guy was attached to so I got a play-by-play of the entire incident from the ground.  I understand all the forces at play, and I absolutely do not think it was indiscriminate use of firepower.  I didn't say that the pilots weren't sorry for what happened or anything.
 
Look, I know this seems inflamatory for you Air Force guys out there.  It certainly wasn't my purpose, but there is a trend that exists.  AV8s and F18s have dropped as many bombs in close proximity to friendly troops as A-10s have--a lot more if you include training, and they don't have nearly the number of fratricide incidents.  I've worked with all the services aircraft in training, including A-10s, so I've gotten to see the different services proficiency at the mission.

You don't have to agree with me, but don't act like I'm just casually tossing declarations around.

[MajWoody]

If you actually watched the video then you must have seen the 2nd drop and strafe was done in the same area of the first. The difference is it looked like they also dropped cluster which freaked the Brits out. They were in no danger.




 

I don't believe there were any cluster munitions employed. Was all gun.

[Spikes]

It's just mean.

[morfiend]

Ya 30 mm of luv....

[redman555]

i woulda pooped myself


-BigBOBCH

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Been flying the A-10 in strike fighters for a few days, am loving every second of it.


Lost a wing tip last night,but was able to land.

[pxdig]

Those guys have a habit of lighting up the wrong side.  A-10's are overrated for close air support, because the Air Force lacks the mentality, training and experience for the mission, and not because the aircraft isn't capable.  But I am prejudiced.

Whenever you have a weapons system with the lethality of the A-10 any mistake what-so-ever ends in tragedy.  To say the A-10 pilots make a "habit" of killing their own is disgusting on your part.   I spent 10 years in the military and still work for the department of defense, and I can honestly say that the preferred aircraft for air support by ground forces is the A-10, despite what your experience in the USMC might have lead you to believe. 

"But Navy /USMC F-18 have less FF incidents" of course, they drop bombs, not fire cannon.  The A-10 is used at extreme close range where the harriers and hornets would never be used.

as far as the USAF lacking the warrior mentality, please click below. 

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123043414

[ColKLink]

I've seen the AIR FORCE a-10 work in person. I was a lvt'er(amtracker in the crotch err usmc).I am a die  hard jarhead. I thought after seeing that puppy work in person....."those a-10 pilots are as good as any cas supplyd by the corps" They hit exactly what we wanted smashed....1st pass......the army apache had just been brought online.....think it was 1983.... the army wanted to show us how "bad"  this new apache was......it was bad allright....he expended all ords....and didnt hit a damned thing......our usmc cobras.....(veitnam vintage)  then came and took care of business for us.... 1st pass....addational pass's  were just for our enjoyment I think