They Knew Pearl Harbour Was Coming

[Serenity]

3. The Japanese had someone routinely taking pictures and doing drawings of the harbor from the bluffs that overlook the harbor.

I don't really know what a "bluff" is, terrain-speaking, but you can see the harbor perfectly from half the island.

Just my .02, I think we knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, and I think we did the right thing in allowing it to be attacked. Just hear me out. China was being torn to hell and back by the Japanese. Japan was fortifying islands dangerously close to our pacific holdings. Germany was running rampant in Europe. Basically, the world was going to hell in a hand basket, and there was nothing we could do, because the American people still adored the idea of isolationism. Meanwhile, I believe the government and the military realized the importance of intervening in these terrible world events. But, with America unwilling to support a bloody 4 year war, what other way could we get into it without a  very convenient attack on American soil that could convince every-day Americans that their lives were in danger if they didn't take the war to the enemy? I think we moved the carriers because they would have been practically defenseless, but we left the BBs so that the Japanese would continue their attack, and because the BBs had a much better chance of defending themselves. Junky, even if this WAS a conspiracy, that does not mean these men died in vain. Their deaths allowed America to intervene on behalf of millions of innocent people around the world, suffering under Japanese of German rule. IMHO, if Pearl Harbor isn't a "conspiracy", then it is one of the best coincidences in history.

[CAVPFCDD]

I don't really know what a "bluff" is, terrain-speaking, but you can see the harbor perfectly from half the island.

Just my .02, I think we knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked, and I think we did the right thing in allowing it to be attacked. Just hear me out. China was being torn to hell and back by the Japanese. Japan was fortifying islands dangerously close to our pacific holdings. Germany was running rampant in Europe. Basically, the world was going to hell in a hand basket, and there was nothing we could do, because the American people still adored the idea of isolationism. Meanwhile, I believe the government and the military realized the importance of intervening in these terrible world events. But, with America unwilling to support a bloody 4 year war, what other way could we get into it without a  very convenient attack on American soil that could convince every-day Americans that their lives were in danger if they didn't take the war to the enemy? I think we moved the carriers because they would have been practically defenseless, but we left the BBs so that the Japanese would continue their attack, and because the BBs had a much better chance of defending themselves. Junky, even if this WAS a conspiracy, that does not mean these men died in vain. Their deaths allowed America to intervene on behalf of millions of innocent people around the world, suffering under Japanese of German rule. IMHO, if Pearl Harbor isn't a "conspiracy", then it is one of the best coincidences in history.

yeah, we let them kill 2,000+ and most of our pacific fleet to prove a point to the american people... give me a break

To call pearl  harbor one of the best conincidences is just insanity. America knew we were going to get involved at some point, we technically were already involved by shipping supplies to the British, this just sped the process up.

Conspiracy theories are complex solutions to situations that have a simple answer, an answer that people don't want to accept as the truth. Take 9/11, the whole government involvement thing is just too complex, and just insane, it simply was just a bunch of angry extremists, but some people don't want to believe that for whatever reason.

[james]

Try and keep a secret between 3 people. See how long it can actually be kept. There is and was too many people in the government and in the military to keep that big of a secret. After all they are all human at the end of the day. The conspiracy thing holds no water. There would be too much conflict of interest for that to be done man.

[Simaril]

This conspiracy claim has been around for years, but I've never seen anyone address one of its greatest flaws....the fact that Roosevelt was a dyed in the wool navy man, to his very core. There's simply NO way he would have allowed the cream of the US fleet to be trashed, no way at all. Especially ridiculous when you remember that AT THE TIME the US Navy viewed carriers largely as adjuncts to the critically important arm, the battleships. If FDR honestly thought the fleet would be struck, its beyond ludicrous to suggest that he'd preserve the carriers but leave all the battleships to go down.

The idea was stupid when first proposed, and with weight of evidence now available its unspeakably idiotic.

[Babalonian]

This conspiracy claim has been around for years, but I've never seen anyone address one of its greatest flaws....the fact that Roosevelt was a dyed in the wool navy man, to his very core. There's simply NO way he would have allowed the cream of the US fleet to be trashed, no way at all. Especially ridiculous when you remember that AT THE TIME the US Navy viewed carriers largely as adjuncts to the critically important arm, the battleships. If FDR honestly thought the fleet would be struck, its beyond ludicrous to suggest that he'd preserve the carriers but leave all the battleships to go down.

The idea was stupid when first proposed, and with weight of evidence now available its unspeakably idiotic.

Cheers.

[AWwrgwy]

RE: Conspiracy

Would an attack on Pearl Harbor where, "miraculously" the fleet was sortied for "maneuvers" and none were sunk have had any different consequences for Japan?

Do you think the U.S. would say, "no harm, no problem" and not declare war?  The U.S.S. Maine blowing up in Havana Harbor, for whatever reason, was enough to start the Spanish-American War.


wrongway

[Saxman]

This conspiracy claim has been around for years, but I've never seen anyone address one of its greatest flaws....the fact that Roosevelt was a dyed in the wool navy man, to his very core. There's simply NO way he would have allowed the cream of the US fleet to be trashed, no way at all. Especially ridiculous when you remember that AT THE TIME the US Navy viewed carriers largely as adjuncts to the critically important arm, the battleships. If FDR honestly thought the fleet would be struck, its beyond ludicrous to suggest that he'd preserve the carriers but leave all the battleships to go down.

The idea was stupid when first proposed, and with weight of evidence now available its unspeakably idiotic.

I love how all the conspiracy theorists like to look at the FDR telegram to Kimmell and Short telling them to let Japan commit the first act of aggression as the "Golden BB" proving that FDR allowed it to happen...

...and completely OMIT the second half the SAME SENTENCE where he tells him to do everything possible to safeguard their command.

The whole conspiracy theory is just an attempt to demonize FDR for no other reason than just because some people seem to think he's the Anti-Christ.

[Ack-Ack]

2. They really weren't sure what the long term effects of the atom bomb would of been, some scientists had even said using it would cause the world to be destroyed prior to the testing in Los Alamos.

To further elaborate, it was the Japanese defense of Okinawa that convinced the Allied High Command and Washington that the price for landing on the main Japanese home islands would be far too costly and was the final catalyst for Truman's decision to approve the bombing of Hiroshima.

ack-ack

[MORAY37]

RE: Conspiracy

Would an attack on Pearl Harbor where, "miraculously" the fleet was sortied for "maneuvers" and none were sunk have had any different consequences for Japan?



wrongway

Yes.  Japan would have won the war.  The United States was dogmatically tied to Battleship Diplomacy, and seaborne airpower was viewed by 95% of Fleet Officers as being secondary to "Big Guns".  Were the fleet to have sortied prior to the attack, The United States Navy would have been tied to its' prewar plans of carrying the battle to the enemy on the backs of battleships.  Losing most of the ships of the line, the U.S. was forced into utilizing all it had left.... Naval air power.  Had the battleships sortied from Pearl prior to the attack, they would have been crushed later, in the decisive victory Yamamoto wanted. 

With this happening, and Japan consolidating its' gains in the Far East, we would have needed to capitulate, prior to Japan really starting to eye the West Coast.  We would have offered a peace treaty, Japan would have taken it in a heartbeat.  Neither country really wanted to fight the other prior to the outbreak of hostilities. It was a war of survival for Japan, after we cut off their access to raw material.

  Remember, it was a devastatingly "lucky" victory at Midway that allowed us to turn the tide.  15 minutes of indecisiveness during that one battle probably cost Japan the war.  And this was with us throwing every last bit we had at them.  Had our tactics been saddled on battleships in 1942 when Midway occurred, we would have lost decisively. 

[Delirium]

Yes.  Japan would have won the war. 

That would of never happened, although the war would of gone on much longer. The US would of out produced the Japanese war machine eventually, the US Submarine program (once they got functional torpedos) would of still ravaged the Japanese cargo ships, and the atomic bomb would of still been produced.

we would have needed to capitulate, prior to Japan really starting to eye the West Coast.  We would have offered a peace treaty, Japan would have taken it in a heartbeat.   

That wouldn't happen today, much less back then when most Americans were incensed by the Japanese attack.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

-Puts on his tin foil hat-


Please understand this my fellow american's, in the 1930's the battleship was proven worthless when it came to a single aircraft and 1 Ap bomb, had the ability to kill thousands of men in a large tin can out at sea. We trained japan officers in the 30's on the proven tactic of carrier launched aircraft raids.


Its unfortunate being a american in such dire times, ever hear of the saying "you have to brake a few eggs to be a omelet?" Well that day the american's in the outclassed and outdated and now vulnerable Us Navy were sacrificed, made into egg's not for the american people, but for the american government.
Hind sight, if the american government had now allowed a few thousand american's to be slaughtered, we would most likely have stayed in a depression, having been conquered and speaking german, russian or japanese.

One must understand the general americans mindset in the 1930's, we just got done with the so called "WAR TO END ALL WARS" no one wanted to send more american boys half way across the planet to fight "AGAIN" in wars we had NOTHING to do with. So happens when you kill a few thousand of us, we become a mad swarm of wasps. After that "blind attack" our country shined if not for our self's but our hatred for the enemy.



Take it for whatever its worth.



"They knew pearl harbor was coming" is just about as stupid as saying we lost 4 fully loaded 747's to hit major military and world finance facilitys in the united states of america and didnt have a FRAKKIN' clue at all.

I cannot steal your car and make it out of state after runing a red light without having 50+ police on my 6:00 and they flew those aircraft for HOURS state to state, and no one had a clue. 


Knew...., no they COUNTED on it, trained allies in the early 30's then made them enemy in the late 30's and sat back and watched them attack. Like starwarts droid army* to release the clone army, that kinda crap.

Make a big snake, then send your snake to eat it, thus your snake becomes biggest of them all, even so big no one else's snake can swallow you.



-take off his hat-


Doesn't change a thing.

[Angus]

Pearl Harbour was a catastrophic blunder. So were the starting moments in the Philippenes, since the warning was already out.
Pearl sighted a sub. And Pearl plotted the enemy force on radar. All for nothing. And they also should have known that topedos could be modded to run in vey shallow water, since the British had done that many months before.
To top that, the first shots in the pacific war were not exchanged at Pearl, the British were already in combat in E-Asia.
And in the Philippines? Mac Arthur's fleet of bombers was largely destroyed on the ground AFTER Pearl, and yes, the word was out. They were still unprepared and the aircraft lined up as for a parade....
And the guy who proved his point with an AP bomb had serious trouble because of it....
The stupitidy of war....

[MORAY37]

That would of never happened, although the war would of gone on much longer. The US would of out produced the Japanese war machine eventually, the US Submarine program (once they got functional torpedos) would of still ravaged the Japanese cargo ships, and the atomic bomb would of still been produced.

That wouldn't happen today, much less back then when most Americans were incensed by the Japanese attack.

I disagree.  Had the Japanese Navy not taken out our battleship fleet, they would have ended up killing the entire fleet, including CVs (which, per American naval doctrine, would have been used only in a support roll to BB's). This was American naval strategy prior to Dec 7th.(of course, this had changed by sunrise, Dec 8th.)  Battleships were the spearhead, supported by carrier aircraft as recon tools.  The USN would have ridden its' big guns into destruction, versus a navy that utilized carrier tactics in an offensive way.

 Were that to happen, the United States would have been hard pressed to mount anything less than a continental shelf, west coast defense for 3 years or so.  During that time, Japan would have had the ability to consolidate its' gains in the Pacific and build its' industrial complex, something it never had the time to do in the real war.  With the raw materials and oil it had annexed in the Far East and South Pacific..... we would have had absolutely zero options, save to sue for peace.  We had no allies left in the Pacific.... Australia had no means to do anything but hold on. 

Our industry wasn't retooled for war production, fully, until the spring of 1943.  The destruction of the Battleships in Pearl was probably the reason we won the war.  It forced our strategy to shift.

[CAP1]

deleted......i don't wanna get another vacation from here

[CAP1]

Have any of you Smoking Guns types ever been to the DMV?

ya, in nj, you have to show 6 points of id. each and every one of them is easily forged. very easily.