No spit 14 !!!

[jmccaul]

As long as we get the Tempest V (introduced concurrently with the dora of course)

Who could argue with that?

P51'ers mabye  

[RAM]

I aqgree  

[Nath-BDP]

Ta 152 is the Tempest's TRUE historical rival, the D9 is with the P51.

[jmccaul]

Tempest V - 400 operational during war. First squad equipped in April '44 and started doing sorties into enemy territory in june (according to Roland Beaumont)

Dora - 700 reached service (i've heard 900 too) Not sure of when squads equipped but i'm prepared to bet it wasn't before tempest V's although they probably saw more action.

Ta 152 - 60 odd made it into squadron service (verm did a very detailed break down)
No dates but i am assuming squads were not equipped untill late '44, early '45

Which seem more apt as opponents to you?

Besides i hear the D9 compares pretty favourably under 25K to the 152?  

[juzz]

Ta 152 can take on the Hawker Fury if it wants a "historical" opponent.  

 

Besides i hear the D9 compares pretty favourably under 25K to the 152?

True - the Ta 152H advantage over the Fw 190D-9 only starts at about 25k and up, and up, and up, and up some more to it's 48k ceiling!

[Karnak]

I say "Forget the LWs".  I'm tired of hearing them b***h whenever we RAF types ask for a new fighter.  I haven't noticed them doing this to anybody else.

What is so bad about the RAF?

You LW guys don't seem to raise a fuss about the USAAF/USN, VVS, IJN/IJA or Regia Aeronautica getting new kites without getting compensation.  Why raise the fuss about the RAF?  You guys already have 7 units to our 3 (1.04 looks to raise this to 8 to 4).  You have a couple of late war aircraft already, the Bf109G-10 and Fw190A-8.  The Fw might be intended for bombers, but that certainly has its place here.  You just got the Fw190A-5, which is a VERY lethal mid-war fighter.  Why do the LW guys need to get yet another late-war bird if we RAFs get our first late-war bird?

Plane set as it stands now on fighters:

1939 NONE
1940 NONE
1941 Spitfire MkVb, Typhoon, Bf109F, ??C.202??
1942 Spitfire MkIX, Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6
1943 Fw190A-5, F4U-1D, F4U-1C, ??La5N??, ??C.205??
1944 Fw190A-8, N1K2, P-51D, A6M5b, P-47D-30, Yak-9U, Bf109G-10, P-38L
1945 NONE

I don't want the Tempest V as the first late-war RAF fighter because it would just be another BnZ cannon bird.  We've already got one.  It is also not something that hasn't been modeled.  While WB might not model it, both AOE and EAW did.  Their flight models may not be up to snuff, but they do count as priors.

I want the Spitfire MkXIV "bubble hood" because it would be used in a different way than the existing aircraft.  I also believe that it would be more competitive with the existing fighter set.  Yes, it too has been modeled in other sims, but I think it would be the best choice for the RAF's first late-war fighter.

I would like to see the Tempest V and Fw190D-9 modeled, I just don't see it as high a priority as the Spitfire MkXIV.  I don't think that the LWs need to be compensated if the RAF gets the Spitfire MkXIV.  We certainly haven't been compensated for each fighter that they've gotten in each release and I would certainly not expect it.  I don't think that HTC should foster the idea that a particular group must be coddled and compensated in each release because another group got something in that release.  The Bf109G-10 and Fw190A-5 would provide adequate competition for the Spitfire MkXIV for a few weeks/months until the Fw190D-9 could/would be added.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 06-23-2000).]

[-lynx-]

I thought TA was a high alt Dora development? Just look at it and see that it's not a frontline fighter.

------------------
-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
I want the Spitfire MkXIV "bubble hood" because it would be used in a different way than the existing aircraft.  I also believe that it would be more competitive with the existing fighter set.  Yes, it too has been modeled in other sims, but I think it would be the best choice for the RAF's first late-war fighter.

I would like to see the Tempest V and Fw190D-9 modeled, I just don't see it as high a priority as the Spitfire MkXIV.  I don't think that the LWs need to be compensated if the RAF gets the Spitfire MkXIV.  We certainly haven't been compensated for each fighter that they've gotten in each release and I would certainly not expect it.  I don't think that HTC should foster the idea that a particular group must be coddled and compensated in each release because another group got something in that release.  The Bf109G-10 and Fw190A-5 would provide adequate competition for the Spitfire MkXIV for a few weeks/months until the Fw190D-9 could/would be added.

Sisu
-Karnak

Lol...you start with no sense, continue with a nonsense and you end losing ALL sense.

Karnak...how can I say this softly...you dont stop squeaking and moaning that you have a 1942-43 plane in the SpitfireIX...now you say that we LW people must match the SPitXIV, a 1944 plane, with the Fw190A5, an early 1943 one?? lol. NOnsense.

You say that SpitXIV will be more competitive with the current planeset LOL!. Of course it would be!. It would be UNBALANCING,sir. A plane faster than Mustang, better accelerator and better climber than 109G10, that can turn more or less with a Spit IX if handled properly...you call that a "competitive plane?" ROFLOL!!! ROFLMAO!!!!

Hey, I dont say you cant get it. Its yours and all yours,but dont DARE to say we MUST match that MONSTER with an A5, sir. This is to say "nah, to the hell with them gimme waht I want and to the hell with balance".

About LW adds...since I came here, "Sir", there has been ONE addition to LW plane set...Fw190A5, while RAF got two aditions, SpitfireV and Typhoon. SO another nonsense on your side.

Again,for if you dont know it, of 4 109 in the planeset, only 2 are competitive, G2 and G10. F4 and G6 are dead meat in MA.


"we haven't been compensated for each fighter that they've gotten in each release "
 Name them, please.

Now,another nonsense...when Fw190A5 came into AH people started to yell that was boring to see Fw190s everywhere...You know what will happen with SpitXIV? that ever JG2 pilots will fly it more than LW planes, except me (I'm the only one who will stay with A5 and A8)...because XIV is a MONSTER.

Nah, get your damned monster. As I said, its all yours I'll kill you in XIV as I do in IX. But give me a decent ride to do it, sir.


------------------
Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"

   

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-24-2000).]

[Hristo]

Do not forget that this is a 1944 plane too  

 

Remember it everytime you ask for Spit XIV.

[Nashwan]

If everyone was limited to planes from the same dates the RAF is, the AH planeset would look like this:
109F4
109G2
Spit V
Spit IX
Typhoon
C.202

Looks a bit sparse doesn't it? Any of the Luftwaffles satisfied with their choices from that list?
The Luftwaffe have one of their main fighters from 44, the G10. They have the 190A5 and A8. That looks like 3 competitive planes to me. Every one of them is newer than the best British plane allowed in the game.

[Hristo]

Then model 1944. All of them that flew.

How about it, RAF types ?

[Vermillion]

Hey I'm with Hristos !  

It would be great for us BnZ types.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Nashwan]

I'd welcome all the 1944 fighters. I don't know how people who restrict themselves to US planes would cope, having to fight 262s and Meteor IIIs. Bit of a mismatch there I think.
Seriously, the argument against jets isn't just play balance. The 262 was so unreliable when it was introduced that only an AF in desperate straights, like the LW, would ever have introduced it into service.
There is no reliability modelled in AH. That's fine as long as all the planes are mainstream production models like now. The reliability of the 262 is far, far worse. In real life they failed to make much impact because of that reliability, amongst other things. To introduce them into AH without taking that into account would distort the game.
I think the 262 will make a good perk plane, in limited numbers that reflect the limited numbers that flew in combat in 1944.

[Hristo]

Now wait there ! Stop that demagogy.

If 262 was so unreliable, how come it was encountered in the air at all ? How come it produced aces ? How come it was a terror for any allied bomber caught in its sights ? How come Alied pilots shot some of them ? Should they had waited for 262 to drop down by themselves ?

From Luftwaffe Fighter Aces:

Heinz Baer 16 victories in 262
Franz Schall 14 victoriesin 262
Hermann Buchner 12 victories in 262
Georg-Peter Eder 12 victories in 262
Erich Rudorffer 12 victories in 262
Karl Schnorrer 11 victories in 262

All of these victories were hard earned, in fight against heavy odds. Strange for such an unreliable plane, isn't it ?

How many planes did the best Spit XIV aces shoot down in that particular plane ?

Other famous Luftwaffe pilots that flew 262:
Adolf Galland
Gerhard Barkhorn
Johannes Steinhoff
Gunther Rall
Walter Nowotny
Walter Krupinski
Theodor Weissenberger
Kurt Welter
Heinrich Ehrler
Gunther Lutzow
...the list goes on

Was the 262 perked for them ?


It was the top priority plane for Luftwaffe in late war, many resources were switched from other type production to the 262 production. Otherwise you could have better prop fighters coming out of the factory sooner etc. Is it right to deny Luftwaffe the 262 in this sim ?

To the Luftwaffe enthusiasts this plane represents far more than just a dweeb mobile. In one word, it is the legend !
Even because of its beautiful lines alone this plane deserves to get modeled in AH  


It was there, and we all know it. It fought, it killed, it died.

Reliability issues will hurt all sides and all planes. Nikis losing wings, P 51 with .50 cals jamming etc. And how about that Typhoon engine reliability ?!

IMO, I just recognize your intention to smuggle the best RAF fighter of 1944, and deny Luftwaffe its  best fighter in 1944 at the same time.

You mention "limited numbers that reflect the limited numbers that flew in combat in 1944". Well, more 262s were produced that Spit XIV. The second they got airborne over Reich in 1944 they were in combat. Wanna perk the Spitter too ?

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 06-24-2000).]

[RAM]

Well said Hristo...I couldn't have said it better.

I say this...if SpitXIV is included in uber plane set Its okay with me. If it is included in NORMAL plane set, then I want my D9 and Hristo's Me262.

FAir and square. And still 70% of the arena would fly the XIV most of the time.



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-24-2000).]