No spit 14 !!!

[Minotaur]

Well...

The LW fans always get the "Ace" because they can top any other UBER plane of the WWII era with the 262.  Really just a pointless and often boring argument to begin with anyway.  

A MA filled with 262's does not appeal to me any more than one filled with any other single plane type.  Possibly this is one of the "Perk" planes Pyro had made reference to not so long ago.

It will be a "HOOT SHOOT" for darn sure!

One thing to keep in mind about the 262.  Historically, it never had to fight itself and was mostly used for bomber interception.  That is if I am correct.

Good Luck - Have Fun!  

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Though some art vets, all art dweebish"
Jedi

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by Nashwan:
I'd welcome all the 1944 fighters. I don't know how people who restrict themselves to US planes would cope, having to fight 262s and Meteor IIIs. Bit of a mismatch there I think.
Seriously, the argument against jets isn't just play balance. The 262 was so unreliable when it was introduced that only an AF in desperate straights, like the LW, would ever have introduced it into service.
There is no reliability modelled in AH. That's fine as long as all the planes are mainstream production models like now. The reliability of the 262 is far, far worse. In real life they failed to make much impact because of that reliability, amongst other things. To introduce them into AH without taking that into account would distort the game.
I think the 262 will make a good perk plane, in limited numbers that reflect the limited numbers that flew in combat in 1944.

If reliability was modeled in the game one of the biggest casulties would be the Hispano cannon. Be carful what you ask for.

[Nashwan]

As I said in my first sentence, I would welcome both the 262 and the Meteor III. I don't know how other players would react, but I really wouldn't fear a 262 in either the Spit or the Meteor.
Hristos, you list 6 aces in the 262. Out of how many aces the LW produced? Several thousand, iirc.
 

It was the top priority plane for Luftwaffe in late war, many resources were switched from other type production to the 262 production. Otherwise you could have better prop fighters coming out of the factory sooner etc. Is it right to deny Luftwaffe the 262 in this sim ?

So all these resources were devoted to it, it operated in a target rich enviroment, it could fly 100mph faster than it's oposition, and in 8 months of fighting it produced a handfull of aces. Doesn't that suggest problems to you?
Of course, bring in the jets and flying buffs will become almost impossible.
The Typhoon suffered terible unreliability in 1941. We are flying in a virtual 1944, and the Typhoon was fixed long before then.
As to the Hispano, I know the Americans had terrible problems with theirs, but I haven't heard much about problems for the RAF. If we are on the subject of gun jams, how about the Mk108? Hardly the most reliable thing around, was it?

[Nashwan]

Shouldn't we be complaining that these Luftwaffles are hijacking a thread about the Spit 14?  

[Pongo]

lol..your right the 108 had simular problems.
The 303 was kept on the spit just because the brits never trusted the reliability of the hispano. It certainly contributes nothing to the lethality of the aircraft.
Lots of the things that are "wrong" with german aircraft are results of their war situation. There were many metals and alloys that they could not get the raw materials for. This kind of thing is fundimental in the make up of the German Italian and Japanese Aircraft. Alot of it would have been expressed as poorer fuel and more unreliable systems..but they are handycaped anyway.
The 262 engines were an example of this. They were designed for a certain alloy steel content and the manufaturers were ordered to make due with inferior metal.  But certainly the british jet engine was far more refined and robust. it was far less tempermental.

[Karnak]

Thats my point Nashwan.  The LWs screech and holler like a female cat every time the pro-RAF guys mention getting anything beyond 1942.  I'm sick of it.  This isn't a tit for tat situation.  The RAF has 3 fighters, the LW has 6.  I don't see any RAF guys asking for a one for one ratio, but the LW guys seem to think that they're entitled to a new late-war fighter if the RAF gets a single, the RAF's first, late war fighter.  Its stupid and makes them look like wussy crybabies.

Yes, I want all of the aircraft that flew in WWII, but we're not going to get them all in one release.  How can you LWs rationalize that the LW, USAAF, IJN/IJA and VVS can get new '44 planes, but not the RAF.  Then if the RAF looks to get one, that the LW must also get yet another?  I don't understand you're position.

For what its worth, the Spitfire MkXIV was first delivered to the RAF in November of 1943.  The Fw190D-9 first flew (as a prototype) in May of 1944.  The Fw190D-9 first saw combat in September of 1944.  Even assuming the RAF had the Spitfire MkXIV in inventory for 4 months before it saw action, that is still six months of action before it ever encountered the Fw190D-9.  The Spitfire MkXIV was the dominant aircraft of the 2nd Tactical Air Force from mid-1944 through the end of the war.

Was the Spitfire MkXIV, from 1943, so good that it has to be placed in the same category as the 1945 Ta152, e.g. and perk aircraft?  If so, how can you LWs argue that the Fw190 was a better fighter than the Spitfire?

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 06-24-2000).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Nashwan:
Shouldn't we be complaining that these Luftwaffles are hijacking a thread about the Spit 14?    

Go back and read Karnak's post...the ones who started to talk about LW planes were RAF people,not the inverse. And he did to justify "his" need for a Spit XIV.

So thank karnak for this. My first reaction was:"ok get a tempest but if you get the XIV give us a D9". Now is:
"Spit lovers only support their need for a uber plane like Spit XIV because arent good enough to live in a spitIX. The ones who are good enough dont rant for a XIV, they only wait for it"

I never support introduction of planes because dweeb people die a lot in their favorite ride. ANd this is just the case. Karnak I offered myself to help you in TA. If you think that with a hit % of less than 2% you will survive more in a Spit XIV than in a Spit IX then you are only half right...My grounds on asking for a Fw190D9 is that it was in enought numbers, at the right time and is a good plane,not unbalancing.

Spitfire XIV would be clearly unbalancing in a MA and I still dont say "no" to it. Karnak say "to the hell with them if they want D9, ,To the hell with game balance, gimme a XIV AND GIMME IT NOW!"

Thee only reason given (with some solid evidence) by karnak to have a XIV is this reasoning:
"BWAAAA BWAAAA they kill me a lot in SpitIX! BWAAA BWAAA I need a spit that can run,climb,accelerate,and kill or I'll rant!!!
BwAAA BWAAAA"!

Sorry but I only can laugh at this.

And of course, I do it      


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-24-2000).]

[Karnak]

RAM, the LWs posted suggesting that we get the Tempest V, another BnZ cannon bird just like the F4U-1C, and they get an Fw190D-9.

There is an ongoing attitude from the LWs that they deserve better fighters than the RAF, or so it seems to me.  The LWs don't seem to care about what the USAAF gets, what the VVS gets or what the IJN/IJA gets.  Why the massive concern about a competitive RAF aircraft?

If the LWs think the Spitfire MkXIV is too good, yet the Fw190D-9 is more than a match for it, how can you in good faith ask for the Fw190D-9 in one thread and then condem the RAF for requesting the Spitfire MkXIV in another by saying that it is too powerful?

Sisu
-Karnak

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:

If the LWs think the Spitfire MkXIV is too good, yet the Fw190D-9 is more than a match for it, how can you in good faith ask for the Fw190D-9 in one thread and then condem the RAF for requesting the Spitfire MkXIV in another by saying that it is too powerful?

Sisu
-Karnak

Karnak I'm not saying D-9 is more than a match for spitfire at least not in the same way. But at least can fight it with some chances of success, unlike an A8 or A5 ,due its better climbrate and acceleration.

But by far SpitXIV is better arena plane than D9. In facti is far better arena plane than ANY OTHER possible. So I say its unbalancing.

RE-read my posts, man. Where do you read that I dont support Spit XIV in AH???? I say that I think it belongs to Uber list but if you get it then we LW people have REAL need for a D9 as 190As are outclassed by it.

What I say is that I dont support the introduvtion of SpitXIV because YOUR reasons. But if people want it in MA, ok have it.

THe whines will be heard in mars.

Fw190D9 belongs to the same league to P51, P38 and P47. So Its fair to ask for it. Spit XIV belongs to UFO list. You want it? ok get it. But gimme a D9 to fight it!!!

[Karnak]

In fairness RAM, you're not one of the LW fans that I'm refering to.  You're arguements seem much more consistant and rational than the few who irk me.  I do want the Fw190D-9 in AH.  I think that it is a very significant model of the Fw series and a required aircraft in any complete WWII planeset.  I don't quite agree with you about how powerful the MkXIV is though.  I agree that it would be very good, one of the top three I think, but I also think that the Fw190D-9 and Bf190G-10/K-4 can face it on basicly even ground.  I don't think that any of the three American staples from the European Theatre, the P-38, P-47 or P-51, are equal to those three if the pilot skill is the same and the aircraft start from a neutral position.

The only one of your arguments that I can't agree with at all is the statement that the Spitfire MkXIV is a late '44 plane.  It was first delivered in November of '43 and was the dominant aircraft od the 2nd TAF from Mid-'44 through the end of the war.  Because we are discussing something that will affect the game balance, this only ammounts to trivia in the context of AH.

Sisu
-Karnak

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:

The only one of your arguments that I can't agree with at all is the statement that the Spitfire MkXIV is a late '44 plane.  It was first delivered in November of '43 and was the dominant aircraft od the 2nd TAF from Mid-'44 through the end of the war.  Because we are discussing something that will affect the game balance, this only ammounts to trivia in the context of AH.

Sisu
-Karnak

Search for the Word "late" before "44" in my earlier posts. I say that Spit XIV is a 1944 plane.Period. It was only used against german planes "en masse" after D-day. Before they flew against V-1s, But I dont regard that as combat missions...not at all.

Anyway I refer to Spit XIV as a 1944 plane, no "late" there.

ANd it would unbalance the arena. As I said before a plane with the speed of the mustang, the climbrat and acceleration of a G10 and turning of a SpitIX is simply a monster. And D9 is nothing near it.

But you want it in MA? if it depended on me I'd put it on uber list. you want it on standard list? ok. Yours. but gimme a 190 able to fight it, gimme a D9.

If you think that is unfair, I disagree 100%. Only G10 could be near SpitXIV...and I dont like G10, I love 190s. ANd the only 190 able to fight a SpitXIV is a dora-9.

and that is a fact.

[Karnak]

RAM, er here you go:

 

Originally posted by RAM in the "OK, the Yanks got theirs, the LWs got theirs, now how about an RAF bird?" thread of the "Aces High General Discussion" forum:

then give us 190D9. SpitXIV is a late 44 plane,P47D-30 too and Fw190A5 is 1943

Ya did say it was a late 44 plane.

I'm quite weary of this long, multi-thread and endless discussion.  I don't think that I'm going to mention the Spitfire MkXIV again.  If HTC asks for opinions on which version to give because its imminent, I'll give my 2 cents, but other than that, no more.  Its too divisive.

I really do hope that you guys get the Fw190D-9 and Me262.
I just hope that our Spitfire MkIX, Spitfire MkVb and Typhoon provide an adequate challenge for them.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 06-24-2000).]

[Nashwan]

Ram, I don't think any RAF fans are calling for the D9 to be kept out. I would love to see it in AH, and as the LW lobby is vocal enough, I think we will.
I'm suprised you say the Spit XIV is too unbalancing, and that it is the best possible arena plane. This is what you had to say on the subject a few weeks ago:
I am really doubtful that Hristo is scared by Spit XIV. I, for me, am not scared by it...if well modelled.

What do I mean by "well modelled"?. Easy, model the Griffon's torque and low speed Spit handling will suck as it did in RL, requiring constant triming and rudder input...something that SpitIX doesnt need at all.

Model the Spitfire's bad handling at high speed and it will suck ,as it did in RL.

So you get a plane that at low speed feels a lot the torque of its engine, and one that over 350 mph is like a piece of rock. Roll problems and hard controls.

I dont fear that kind of plane. Bring it as it was and I'll kill em as I kill SpitsIX today.

Fw190D9 on the other hand retains its wonderful handling at all speeds, rollrate, and turns better than a A8...it accelerates very well too. If we add MW50 to it (and we should do it), then we have a plane to be scared of. It may be not the better climber nor the faster...but it still is like a powered-up light Fw190A8...and if you dont fear such a plane then you arent very wise
Now you say the Spit is unbalancing? I reluctantly came to the conclusion some time ago that the Spit 14 was too good, but this argument has been twisted and turned so many ways, by all it's participants, that I no longer know what to think.

[-lynx-]

Hristo - could you split those aces between fighter/bomber kills? AFAIK 262 was designed to kill B17s/24s and for no other purpose.

Let's have 262s IN NUMBERS SHE WAS AVAIALBLE and lets have Tempest Vs. And lets see how many of those 262s make it out of the ack range. That (and unreliability/accidents) accounted for most of 262s losses, right?

Heinz Baer had 16 kills? Was it with quad 30mm cannons flying at (at least) twice the speed his targets flew and against REAL 50 cals (not the stuff we're facing) as defensive armament? That's kinda nothing, don't you agree? I mean for all the hype and stuff?

I guess I'm one of those "RAF types" who have 3 (that is THREE) planes to chose from. 2 of the 3 are 1941 and the third - 1942...

And for chrissakes you "LW types" get off your high horse about Hispanos, will you? Let's have it - let's have reliability issues etc but for all planes... I suspect the very first effect would be virtual grounding of all 109s with their crappy undercarriage... Really - careful what you wish for...

------------------
-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF

[RAM]

Nashwan When I wrote that I thought what I was writting. After that on MA, some talk and a little of research I found that the only nasty thing in low speed SpitXIV handling was its opposite torque. It seems that it had not so bad handling at least not by far the one I thought it had.

SO, you see you are quoting a post of me that is basically wrong...or at least that is what I think now after I looked into it with more caution.