No spit 14 !!!

[straffo]

I know ram  
But in real life (tm) I'm a glider pilot so I don't realy care of the performances  
I just want a pretty plane  

However in MA I'm like you a 190A8 fan  
<edit>
more  
 

I've to admit it ...even if I don't like flying the spitfire I'm in love with her  

but my all time favorite is
 
hint : she's not build in the USA  

[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 06-26-2000).]

[pzvg]

DING! sorry folks, V1's don't count
(anything you can <shoot down> by flying alongside and tipping it over with your wing hardly counts as combat,dangerous yes)
And y'all missed the point{again} I don't care if the 262,D9,and 14 show up,in fact I'd like 'em all to show up, but this whole pointless debate about performance numbers,"uberness" god I'm starting to hate that word,yada yada, It don't mean squat ok?
If I'm up in a spit 14,and encounter Mitsu in a zeke, the chances are damn good I'm gonna die. Is the zeke overmodelled? no if anything it's Mitsu that's overmodelled  
My point(read slowly so this time it sinks in) on any given day in any given aircraft, you WILL find somebody up there who is having a much better day than you are. And you will go down in flames,and when you start hollering about Uber this or Overmodelled that, all you do is take that rare experience of going up against a live foe and turn it into a disgraceful playground squabble that would shame my 8 year old. Enough is enough, start enjoying what you have here, hell, the way some of you carry on, start enjoying life in general.
Most folks are in this game for recreation, that's spelled fun, and I sense that some of you have a rather weird,(and not very healthy) idea of what fun is. Which is your problem, The constant on-running tit for tat verbal exchange of vitrol, both here and on Ch1, that's my problem, mine and the guys who don't bother to post or reply. Be civil, you are entitled to your opinion,evry last one of you, but you are not entitled to act like a crowd of foul-mouthed,overbearing 16 year old Quake doods (stereotype,lotta cool 16 yr olds here) Just stop the bitterness ok?
Be what you were when you came into this hobby, excited,happy,enjoying every dogfight.
Don't lose what you have folks, 'cuz at this rate you gonna have a shiny new plane,and no one to fly it against.
(exceedingly long rant post off,in fact post mode off,this was the swan song of reason, I have better things to do. From now on)

------------------
pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[jmccaul]

My point is that V1's while not air-to-air it is "action" think of it as ground attack in the air. Also a not insignificant number of people died attacking V1's and if you read "my part of the sky" by Roland Beaumont you will see the pilots were very weary of shooting these things down.

 

[Nashwan]

   

Originally posted by Pongo:

Originally posted by Nashwan:
Was the German invasion of Poland "combat" for the Luftwaffe? Or the early stages of Barbarossa? The invasion of Greece?
In all these cases the Germans had suprise, numbers (at least locally) amd vastly superior equipment on their side. A lot easier than shooting down V1s, imho.

 

Originally posted by Pongo:

Wow that is the stupidest thing I have read in  awhile...
Do you have any idea how many German pilots died flying in those campaigns? .

Not enough.
   

Originally posted by Pongo:

Do you know that there was a Hurricane pilot that reportedly claimed 50 kills during the Greece campaign?

Never heard of him. Please enlighten me as to this Allied ace, who must surely have been one of the top Allied pilots of WW2.
   

Originally posted by Pongo:

How many pilots died droping V1s?

Too many.
   

Originally posted by Pongo:

I used to think you were just a rabid and narrow minded proponent of the RAF in the game. Your above statement leads me to believe you might just not be worth discussing things with.

Pongo, I used to think you werte just a rabid supporter of the Luftwaffe. I am not so sure anymore. Every German plane was the greatest thing ever created. The Luftwaffe thugs who murdered thousands and helped to murder tens of millions are Heroes to you. Don't you think that is strange?

My comments were in response to this from RAM:
   

I dont say that hunting V1s were easy thing...what I say is that it was easier than to deal with a thousand bombers escorted by hundred of fighters. Its different, but you must agree with me that the latter missions are more hard.

Were the early German invasions that hard? That seemed to me to be the hurdle that RAM was trying to set for combat missions. As is usuall, it is one rule for the Luftwaffe and another for everyone else.
Do I believe that shooting V1s was harder than  the early German invasions? No. Do I think shooting down V1s was combat? Yes, undoubtedly. Those pilots were risking their lives in combat against the enemy.

I don't know if you do it deliberately or not, but you constantly try to claim the superiority of German equipment, German tactics, and above all German pilots. Anything, like the Spitfire 14, that doesn't fit in with that warped view of the world is ignored, or trivialised, or simply lied about. Wasn't it Dr Goebbels who said "tell a lie, tell it often enough and people will believe it"? The Spitfire was superior to other German planes at the time, but that doesn't fir in with your view of the master race, so it must be changed. The facts of it's performance are freely available, so the time of the Spitfire must be changed, so that it can be favourably compared to a German plane. Problem solved, Germans once again the superior race.

Pongo, you frighten me. There used to be a Dutch/Jewish branch to my family. They were distant relatives, who I probably wouldn't evven know about if not for WW2. Now they are gone. I worry that with people like you rewriying history, saying the Germans were better than everybody else, that it could all happen again.


[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 06-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 06-26-2000).]

[RAM]

I only say this. I am saying that Spit XIV is too uber for the MA...that seems to be like I say that a brit plane was better than Anything the germans could field to counter it...exception made of the Me262, but that is another story.

I simply refuse to answer any more posts of this moron. I hope that the rest of the people with a single neuron in the brain supports the boykott.

[Pongo]

Nashwan.

You have some big decisions to make.
The whole premise of your accusation that I am a Nazi seems to be that I think the German planes were better then the allied planes.
But the whole point of this argument (was) that the Spit XIV is too supperior to the german and american and russian and japanese and italian planes for the game to handle.
You better come up with some theory about my political bias to explain that.

In your confused mind that means I think the germans were supperior. I can see how it is easier to make silly accusations about my pollitical beliefs to match your silly concepts of the air war in europe but you would be better served to read some of my posts on  what I think about those nazi butchers and a few books more in depth than squadron signal Spitfire in Action.

So I am pulling a goebles am I..
Some one said that the Balkan Invasion and the Invasion or Poland were equivilent to shooting down V1s.
I think you just said that cause you got a head of steam going and do not know any better. Both operations where very grimly fought in the air and the loses on the germans side were quite heavy.
I dont have the numbers in front of me but I would wager that the loses in AC to V1s were near identical to non operational attrition losses for the same forces in the same period.
It was probably more dangorous to land at a fighter strip in normandy than to shoot down v1s.
The allies did not count a V1 kill to be anywhere equivilent to a plane kill, strange that you do.I will let the readers of the post decide who is rewritting history and who is not.

As to the Hurricane ace. I believe his name was Tuttle(i believe). He died fighting that little skirmish and the records of his kills were lost in the evacuation. His fellow pilots credited him with 50 or so kills.
Yes he would have been the top scoreing western allied ace of the war if its true. (You didnt revise the Russians out of the war did you?)

[Nashwan]

First, I am sorry for some of my comments. I perhaps went too far, as I recieved some very bad news yesterday.
I didn't mean to imply you were a Nazi, I just believe that the more the "heroes" of the third Reich are venerated, the easier it is to forget the atrocities the Nazi's carried out. In 50 years time, when people only remember how the "heroes" fought bravely to defend their country against overwelhming odds, what is to stop it happening again? Veneration of ANY part of Nazi Germany is in my view dangerous. Whilst I am not accusing you of being a Nazi, neo-Nazis in Europe admire the German military, and their "Heroic" exploits, much more than they admire the Holocaust. Nazi's would like nothing more than to have such unpleasant details forgotten, and only the "glorious" parts of the Third Reich remebered.
The Hurricane pilot you are reffering to is Pat Patte, I believe. Anywhere from 40-60 kills. Most of those were against the Italians, long before the Germans entered the Balkan campaign.
As I said, I intended to draw comparison to RAMs comment that if it wasn't going up against thousands of bombers escorted against hundreds of bombers, it wasn't combat. Viewed against that yardstick, it wasn't combat. Against any reasonable measure, it was. As was flying at 400mph at low level, and ramming another aircraft with your wingtip, because the risk of firing at the V1 was so great. Several pilots died intercepting V1s, yet they are dismissed as non combat casualties. That is unfair.

[Pongo]

Thanks for your statements.
It is unfortunate that the discussion was sidetracked away from the SpitXIV.
While I dissagree with your statements about how easy the mentioned campaigns were, my dissagreement was mostly about the revisionism required for your statment to be true. Not because I feel there was any heroism involved in the german efforts in those campaigns.
I aggree with you about the dates of introduction  of the spit XIV. I also agree that it is definatly "combat" to shoot down V1s. The V1s were the biggest threat the germans presented in the air in early 1944. The Brits put their best planes there to contest it and take advantage of the extra speed of the XIV. They could have put those planes anywhere. If the germans had been able to put AC over england in daylight in early 1944, they would have been met by spit XIV. So what they shot down is a mute point to me.
Good luck with the spit XIV campaign

[rfa]

Nash, clearly you have little idea about the early pre-Battle or Britian or pre-Pearl Harbor war.  I am not suprised, since many people in the US are like you.

What ticked me off is your attitude and comments to Pongo.  I also disagree with him about the Mk14, but its just a conflict of opinions about a game - camparing him to a nazi just becasue he loves LW iron is quite sad.

...and PS, you should REALLY read up on that early war stuff.  1939 or other compaigns were just as much a "real" and "bloody" as the early Japanese victories in the Pacific, or the Battle of the Bulge (so famous in the US).

-------------------------------
S/L Skalski
No. 308 (Polish) Sqn
Royal Air Force  

[funked]

RF-A you mean Nashwan right, not Nash?

[rfa]

hehe, yup - sorry Nash!  

[Staga]

uhmm..hmph..aaa... OH YES !!!  Bring V-1 TO AH !!!

[MANDOBLE]

Why no Spit XIV? AFAIK Spit XIV had excelent top speed, excelent acceleration, excelent climb rate, good turning rates, but poor high speed control and average roll rate. IMO, 190D9 is a much more dangerous opponent. It had excelent top speed, excelent acceleration, good climb rate, poor turning rates but excelent high speed control and roll rate. In fact, 190A5 or even A8 could be more than a match for any Spit XIV, remember that this is "The Arena", not a 1 vs 1.

[Nashwan]

I didn't mean to compare Pongo, or anyone else, to a Nazi. I am not very good at getting my message across most of the time.
I would like to try to explain why I overreacted like that.
Luftwaffe fans have frequently stated the opinion that the Spit 14 was not active before Oct 1944 because fighting against V-1s doesn't count. That is an opinion I don't share. It required skill and courage to shopot down a V-1, most pilots though ramming them whilst flying at 400mph was safer than opening fire on one, that shopuld tell you the danger involved. I can find no record of the number of pilots killed, only 1 book lists several, and names one pilot, Jean-Marie Maridor DFC, who died making his eleventh V-1 kill.
Despite the fact that pilots died doing what Luft fans dismiss as not even worthy of being called combat,any challenges to the Luft point of view are made quite peacefully by RAF supporters. No insults are flung, it is just politely challenged.
I posted a light hearted jibe at the Luftwaffe, claiming they had it easy early in the war. It was my intention, when this was challenged, to point out that RAM was saying combating V-1s wasn't combat because it wasn't as difficult as the job Luft pilots had in 44, intercepting huge American bomber formations with their enormous fighter escorts. Judged by that standard, what the Luftwaffe did early in the war wasn't combat. Judged by any normal standard it was.
Wat shocked me was the vehemence of the reaction of the Luft supporters. I would have expected something similar if I had walked into a mosque and shouted "Mohammed was a liar". In fact I am still expecting the JG2 Fatwah any day.
I underestimated the devotion of some people to the Luftwaffe. To me they were another part of the Nazi regime, one of the military arms that was used to futher oppresion and tyranny.
I have no respect for the Luftwaffe. They may have been brave and skilled, but they were brave and skilled murderers. No German had as much oportunity to defect as a pilot, and few defections would have been as benifical to the Allies as that of a pilot with his aircraft. Several Luftwaffe pilots did, and they, in my opinion, are the only Heroes the Luftwaffe produced during the war.
Luftwaffe pilots killed their enemies in the service of the Nazi regime, and it shocked me how so many people leapt to their defence with such passion.
As I said, I don't consider someone with a passion for the Luftwaffe a Nazi. That doesn't mean that I don't thing the glamourization and hero worship of the Luftwaffe isn't dangerous. Glamourize the Luft and some of that glamour rubs off on the rest of Nazi Germany. It is that which worries me. A man like Haider in Austria doesn't go around praising the concentration camps, he praises the bravery and skill of the German (and Austrian) fighters.
In short, I was disgusted by the attitude that a true hero like Jean-Marie Maridor did nothing, not even worthy of being called combat, whilst people leap to defend German pilots who may have been more skillful, may have been as brave, but were not fit to lick the boots of a man like Jean Marie Maridor.

Rfa, I am British not American. I do know about the early war, and I am sorry if my comments offended you. I did not mean to imply the Poles put up little resistance to the Nazis, and if thats the way it came across I am sorry. I know how fierce the fighting was early in the war, and I also know that in most cases the Luftwaffe had not only the advantage of suprise but numbers and superior equipment.

[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 06-29-2000).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Why no Spit XIV? AFAIK Spit XIV had excelent top speed, excelent acceleration, excelent climb rate, good turning rates, but poor high speed control and average roll rate. IMO, 190D9 is a much more dangerous opponent. It had excelent top speed, excelent acceleration, good climb rate, poor turning rates but excelent high speed control and roll rate. In fact, 190A5 or even A8 could be more than a match for any Spit XIV, remember that this is "The Arena", not a 1 vs 1.

Mandoble D9's acceleration wont be better than A5's. SpitXIV's acceleration is better than 109G10's.Watch the powerloading of both planes. Climbrate has the same problem.

And Hispeed maneouverability? is that so SERIOUS problem? Spit XIV should have way better hispeed handling than 109G10 and he all know how dangerous a G10 is in AH.

I still keep on saying that the monster would unbalance the arena. A d9 wouldnt.