Author Topic: No spit 14 !!!  (Read 6440 times)

Offline hblair

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No spit 14 !!!
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2000, 05:53:00 PM »
You guys better get along before I have ta use some karate on ya's.    

 

[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 06-30-2000).]

Offline Nashwan

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No spit 14 !!!
« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2000, 02:28:00 PM »
Sorry for reviving this, but I've found some figures for the RAF losses incurred against the V-1s.

Firstly, the Luftwaffes losses during the Polish campaign are given as
285 aircraft destroyed
279 damaged
734 crewmen dead
by Janusz Piekalkiewicz in The Air War 1939 - 1945
and as
203 destroyed
221 crew killed
218 missing (50 subsequently returned to unit)
by Anthony Robinson in Aerial Warfare

Both books list approx 2000 planes commited by the Luft, as against approx 400 obselescent Polish aircraft.

The number of killed in the Janusz Piekalkiewicz book seems too high, at approx 3 dead per aircraft destroyed. As it has been translated from the Polish I suspect killed has been substitued for casualties, which would include dead wounded and missing.

That works out at approx 10-14% of Luftwaffe aircraft destroyed, and with approx 6500 aircrew (there were far more bombers than fighters in the forces the Luft deployed) a total of 3-3.5% aircrew dead.

The New Zealand Fighter Pilots website lists the casualties for 486 squadron. Flying Tempests, one squadron alone lost 17 aircraft destroyed, another 17 damaged and 3 pilots killed. I don't even begin to know how to work that out, as it represents over 100% aircraft destroyed, another 100% damaged and a pilot casualty rate of approx 25%.
Granted the anti Diver campaign lasted jsut over twice as long as the Polish campaign, but as you can see the comparison I made in the begining was valid.

funked

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« Reply #92 on: July 02, 2000, 03:18:00 PM »
Nath, D-12 was a few prototypes.  No soup for you!

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-02-2000).]

Nath-BDP

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« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2000, 05:28:00 PM »
The D-12/13 saw service.

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2000, 05:29:00 PM »
tsk tsk tsk

Now how many times am I gonna have to post the same performance chart for you guys.  

The D12 was a high altitude variant, its low altitude performance STINKS. The D9 is a much better performer for the arena, by far. Compare the following chart to D9 performance, and then tell me if you want the D12 or D9

 



------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

Nath-BDP

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No spit 14 !!!
« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2000, 05:36:00 PM »
Umm, I can't make out anything in on that chart.

The D-12 was a ground-attack fighter and supplanted the D-9 in production during February or March 1945 on the production lines operated by Arado and Fieseler. Fitted also with 2x 20mm MG151/20 and Mk 108. Most of the D-12s never saw service but very few did.

Randon

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No spit 14 !!!
« Reply #96 on: July 06, 2000, 06:08:00 PM »
Surely the tempest and Spit 14 are complementary - & should not be forced choices.

1.  The Spit 14 is the RAF's first line high Altitude fighter from mid 1944.  

2.  The Tempest is the RAF's first line Low altitude fighter from Mid 1944

Closterman (who led a Tempest wing) said that pilots from spit 9 squadrons should convert to spiot 14 and from typhoon squadrons should convert to Tempest

I would like to see both modelled.

Offline Torque

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No spit 14 !!!
« Reply #97 on: July 06, 2000, 11:34:00 PM »
Oh...yeah baby that spit looks real nice, ya mean on a co-alt merge i can pull the stick back and watch the 109 fall under me...heheheh.

Offline jmccaul

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No spit 14 !!!
« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2000, 01:00:00 PM »
It would be a forced comprimise due to many people thinking the spit 14 would dominate the arena - despite the RAE judging the tempest 5 to be better under 20k
(although most of the same people believe the 262 would be a welcome addition to the planeset)    

Offline Major Tom

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« Reply #99 on: July 08, 2000, 11:00:00 PM »
Lets see some betty bombers with Baka bombs  

Baka... the ultimate boom and zoom..and BOOOMM!!! Aircraft!

Offline Pongo

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No spit 14 !!!
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2000, 11:48:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan:
Sorry for reviving this, but I've found some figures for the RAF losses incurred against the V-1s.

Firstly, the Luftwaffes losses during the Polish campaign are given as
285 aircraft destroyed
279 damaged
734 crewmen dead
by Janusz Piekalkiewicz in The Air War 1939 - 1945
and as
203 destroyed
221 crew killed
218 missing (50 subsequently returned to unit)
by Anthony Robinson in Aerial Warfare

Both books list approx 2000 planes commited by the Luft, as against approx 400 obselescent Polish aircraft.

The number of killed in the Janusz Piekalkiewicz book seems too high, at approx 3 dead per aircraft destroyed. As it has been translated from the Polish I suspect killed has been substitued for casualties, which would include dead wounded and missing.

That works out at approx 10-14% of Luftwaffe aircraft destroyed, and with approx 6500 aircrew (there were far more bombers than fighters in the forces the Luft deployed) a total of 3-3.5% aircrew dead.

The New Zealand Fighter Pilots website lists the casualties for 486 squadron. Flying Tempests, one squadron alone lost 17 aircraft destroyed, another 17 damaged and 3 pilots killed. I don't even begin to know how to work that out, as it represents over 100% aircraft destroyed, another 100% damaged and a pilot casualty rate of approx 25%.
Granted the anti Diver campaign lasted jsut over twice as long as the Polish campaign, but as you can see the comparison I made in the begining was valid.

Sofar we have 735 German air crew dead against 3.
And 2000 German Aircraft against 400(excellently flown)
vs 5000 allied aircraft against none..
I am glad you are researching. But you gotta take those blinders off to get anything from it.
Many of the pilots that participated on the Polish side of case white were flying against the buzz bombs too.. Wonder how they would compare the two.

Individual pilots shot down 60 v1s.. did any v1s shoot down multiple planes.

I will try to look up some info on losses to V1s. Like I said I know its combat. I know those 3 guys died fighting the enemy as much as anyone else in any war ever. But I still think your comparison is nonsence. The Germans had the allies overwhelmed numerically at malta. Was that the same as V1s too?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2000, 03:18:00 PM »
So far we have 221 aircrew dead, not 735. If you have also found the 735 figure, then I stand corrected, but I am sure the 735 figure is a miss translation of casualties, which would include prisoners and wounded. A figure of 3 dead per plan seems too high to me. If you take the BOB as an example, on average 1 German bomber (Do17, Ju88 or He111) destroyed resulted in 1.5 dead Crewman. When you add in the fighters and Ju87s, the result is less than 1 dead crewman per destroyed plane. I doubt that ratio would have been 5 times higher in Poland.
There were never 5000 fighters against the V-1s. ADGB comitted 8 day fighter squadrons and 4 night fighter squadrons. I only know the losses for 1 squadron definately. 486 sqd lost 3 pilots and 17 aircraft.
I have since found at least 2 pilots of 91 sqd that were killed, and another 2 from 322 sqd, which brings us to at least 7 from 3 squadrons. (Note, these are from the descriptions of individual pilot deaths, not a complete record of the numbers killed)Obviously the total is not going to get as high as the death toll in Poland, if every pilot from those 12 squadrons was killed it still wouldn't add up to the numbers the far larger Luftwaffe force lost. Comparing raw numbers is nonsense. If every single one of the 957 Spit XIVs built was shot down, the total number of pilot deaths (about 1 in 4 planes destroyed seems to be average) would only equal the Luft losses in Poland.
The Luftwaffe suffered losses of approx 3-4% of aircrew and 10-15% of aircraft. For the 3 squadrons I have found so far the RAF losses were at approx 20%.
Of course it's possible the RAF squadrons had a much higher percentage of bad pilots, but it seems to me more likely that having to intercept such large numbers of V-1s was risky, and that the small risk each time finally caught up with the pilots. Having to shoot down the final total of approx 2000 V-1s, or ram them if that seemed a safer bet (can't you see how dangerous it was if ramming a bomb travelling at 400mph was seen as a safer alternative?), meant enormous risks for those pilots.
The fact remains that for those tasked with intercepting V-1s it was more risky that the task of a German pilot tasked with attacking Poland.
As to Malta, unlike the Polish airforce, the defenders at least had fairly modern planes. They had the benefit of radar to warn them of incoming German raids. Polish pilots flew outdated aircraft, often with only a 50% ammo load because of supply problems.
As to the Polish pilots who carried on the war from Britain, I am sure they would rate flying against the overwhelming odds they faced in 1939 as more difficult. I claimed that shooting down V-1s was harder than being a German pilot then, not harder than being a Polish pilot.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #102 on: July 09, 2000, 06:56:00 PM »
You need to post more specific numbers about losses to V1s befor you should say you were right.
Here is an account by Alfered Price about V1 intercepting from Wings of Fame 16.
"About 90% of the V1s shot down by fighters fell out of control and detonated upon hitting the ground; the rest detonated in mid-air. Provided the fighter was more than 150 yds(137m) from the explosion, there was little risk of serios damage. Somtimes fighters suffered minor damage if they flew through a cloud of burning petrol from the missle's fuel tank after the detonation, or were hit by small pieces of wreckage hurled great distances by the force of the explosion. It could be hazardous if the fighter pilots engaged flying  bombs from within 150 yd, however."
What possible reason could the most published Spitfire expert have for down playing the danger of engaging V1s.
Every account I have ever read follows the same thread.
If you want to make a case. Show quotes that say-
Such and such squadron lost 17 planes in 4 months to exploding v1s.
Not they lost so many planes in so much time. They lost em to what?

The details of pilots lost are not even necessary to go into. If the Germans only lost 150 guys that is 5 squadrons of tempests.
Your own numbers make your assertion that V1 intercepting was equivelent to poland the balkans or barbarosa silly.

Perhaps you need to be reminded what you said...
"Was the German invasion of Poland "combat" for the Luftwaffe? Or the early stages of Barbarossa? The invasion of Greece?
In all these cases the Germans had suprise, numbers (at least locally) amd vastly superior equipment on their side. A lot easier than shooting down V1s, imho.
"
Look at that last sentence. It is rediculous.
My quote from Price totaly refutes it. The responses made concerning it were really quite tame.  The numbers you present now are just more weight against your statment.

V1s where a real and deadly menace. But not to the RAF only to the civilians. The only casualty I found named was the same one you did.
GIVE IT UP

Offline Nashwan

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No spit 14 !!!
« Reply #103 on: July 09, 2000, 10:29:00 PM »
Pongo, all squadrons suffer attrition from non combat losses. This applies to the Luftwaffe as well as the RAF. In fact it probably applies more to the Luft in Poland, who were operating in more difficult conditions, often from unprepared bases. The 109 also had a notoriously high number of landing accidents. If you want to claim that the losses suffered by the RAF squadrons intercepting V-1s were accidents, fine. Remeber that the Luft would also have suffered accidents too. To claim that the RAF suffered only the normal number of losses they would have had in non-combat operations is silly.

 
Quote
The details of pilots lost are not even necessary to go into. If the Germans only lost 150 guys that is 5 squadrons of tempests.
The Germans lost 250 planes out of 2000. "50 crew dead out of 6500. 1 RAF squadron alone lost 17 planes, 3 lost at least 20% of their pilots. You maintain the that a 3% loss rate shows a higher risk than a 20% loss rate? I'm sorry I just can't understand your thinking.

I have often seen quoted that the most dangerous branch of any military force to serve in during the war was the German U-Boat crews. Over 50% of them were killed (28,000 dead). Yet in your view it was safer to be a U-boat crewman than a British civillian (about 50,000 dead through bombing)

 
Quote
Not they lost so many planes in so much time. They lost em to what?
I have a few individual descriptions of combats in the Polish campaign, but the majority of losses could well be down to accidents, if I follow your twisted logic.
What do you believe caused all these losses?
Were the RAF pilots involved particualary inept?

 
Quote
Look at that last sentence. It is rediculous.
My quote from Price totaly refutes it.
Your quote from Price says that if a pilot shot down a V-1 from distance he was safe. The pilots had a mission to carry out, intercepting V-1s. That was often incompatible with staying safe. Shooting at a V-1 from 150-200 yards makes it difficult to score a kill, they were very small targets. Many pilots got to closer ranges to shoot them down, others rammed them. Is that perfectly safe?
 
I am attempting to find the total number of losses suffered by those 12 squadrons during the 2 months (not 4) that most of them spent engaging V-1s. I think the figure of 17 lost planes in 2 months is rather larger than nomal attrition, if that had been the normal rate then the RAF would have lost 1500 aircraft in acidents alone during the BOB, on top of what the Luft managed to do.
If I ever do find a total figure I will come back and argue with you, as you will obviously accept nothing else. If you haven't discovered what percentages are by then it will be a wasted effort however, because as I said if every single pilot had been killed in the explosion of a V-1 you will still claim it to be safer than Poland because there were simply not enough RAF pilots in 12 squadrons to equal the casualties almost the entire Luftwaffe sustained in Poland.

Offline mx22

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No spit 14 !!!
« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2000, 08:41:00 AM »
Nashwan,

It simply doesn't pay of to argue with Pongo. Trust me, I know it from my expirience. The guy will stand by his unproven point even after you give him what seems like a definate prove.

mx22