Ar 240

[moot]

Vortex - Didn't Stampf say he'd found evidence of a couple of 152Cs serving with JG11?

[33Vortex]

The book states that there are indication of at least one example that were issued to JG11. This particular aircraft was also equipped with the EZ42 gyrostabilized sight. It would have supposedly been in JG11 for the last couple weeks but without official papers (everything was chaos at this point) it is very difficult to prove with hard evidence which can't be found. Also there are photographs of what some claim to be 152C fuselages, and witness reports of 152C airframes being scrapped but again, no hard evidence. The timeline is right for one of the planned production plants to have started production just a few weeks before end of hostilities, I do not recall which one off the top of my head, so there may have been a batch of 152Cs that saw service after all. Nobody has been able to find compelling evidence of that actually being the case so the official stance remain that, probably not.

At the time the allies often failed to distinguish between the different langnase doras, they all looked very similar and the priority was to get rid of all the "nazi junk". It seems the allies failed to recognize the 152C at all, and they picked a few 190D and 152H models to be shipped to the states for evaluation. This would explain why there are no allied findings of the type post-war.

Edit: Also any combat encounters with the Ta152C or 190D would be classed as 'longnose doras' or 'longnose 190s' as there was virtually no visual difference between the two. Heck the 152H was identified as 109s by a 3-ship Tempest formation in one encounter. So it's all very sketchy.

[33Vortex]

You still haven't explained how Willy Messerschmitt "kept those a/c that he viewed as a threat to his firm's a/c from maturing." You're making character assassinations based on faulty or non-existent data.

I am? I did not make this accusation, it seems you are confusing me with someone else.

Btw. The replacement for the Bf 110 was the Me 210/410. Entered service in 1942 and remained in production until the summer of 1944 and the implementation of the "emergency fighter program." It did not replace the 110 in the night-fighter role however as the 110's performance was considered sufficient for that role.

Yes but some put the 210/410 in the same folder as the 110, in this book it's actually referred to as the '110' simply. I'm familiar with the development that the 110 went through and the 410 was a very capable aircraft. However the Ta152A/B would have been something else. The A/B types used the Jumo 213, same engine as the 190D, while the C type used the DB603.

The DB603 was labeled to be produced for the 109 exclusively. This could be one such instance where Messerschmitt used his influence to block the competition from using this sought after fighter engine. Certainly the 190 programme at Focke-Wulf suffered from not having access to the DB600 line engines. Kurt Tank always wanted this engine in his 190 but was only given access to it in '44, and even then it was a older engine type than the ones used for the 109K model so he still had to settle for less than what Messerschmitt was granted. The Ta152C was the aircraft that Kurt Tank always had wanted to build, the 190 with a Daimler-Benz pure high performance fighter engine.

[moot]

Vortex IIRC Stampf said he had made his investigation starting from the pilots' end, not the airplane records.

[33Vortex]

Yeah, I have no reason not to believe that to be true. There are numerous claims of Ta152Cs having been in service, but without hard evidence. It's down to how much credibility you give certain individuals. Some dismiss it as bs, but I think those who do are biased. Of course there's the other end of the spectrum too, but as I said, I have no reason not to believe these claims to be true. Still there exist no hard evidence of it.

For all I know the Ta152C could have been in service in equal or even greater numbers than the H model. Photographs, official records and such could easily have been destroyed in the chaos (if there even were any). We know that a lot of the german research work and official papers perished in the last few weeks of the war. Sometimes because of German engineers who did not want to let the allies have their work, sometimes because bombs burnt their work to the ground, sometimes because angry allied soldiers destroyed everything german made with a passion. I think we all know how chaotic the last few weeks were.

[33Vortex]

In reference to my post above about the 190 with a DB600 line engine. The 190 outperformed the 109 in many regards (most) when it was introduced with a radial engine. So it does not require a lot of imagination for you to think how it may have performed with a in-line DB601 engine as the one used in the 109 at the time. The Daimler-Benz fighter engine production was always exclusive for Messerschmitt's production of 109s. It can be argued that this hampered development of other fighter types. Personally I do believe it did, as we see in the case of the 190.

[MiloMorai]

The DB603 was labeled to be produced for the 109 exclusively.

DB603?

[33Vortex]

The 603 was used in the Ta152, the 605 in the Bf109K. The whole line was always exclusive to the 109 save for a few cases. Such as the Bf410 apparently also using the DB603.

[Die Hard]

I am? I did not make this accusation, it seems you are confusing me with someone else.

Quite right. I'm sorry about that.

However, you did say this: "To me Willie Messerschmitt was just another overthunk, who only cared for making money on this war." That is also a character assassination that has no foundation in facts.

Yes but some put the 210/410 in the same folder as the 110, in this book it's actually referred to as the '110' simply.

Then you really shouldn't use this book as a reference for anything.

[33Vortex]

Then you really shouldn't use this book as a reference for anything.

Really? Interesting point of view. It is all about the Ta152, all versions and covering some of the 190D development and 190 development in general. So whether it's 100% correct about other aircraft is really quite irrelevant. If I wanted that info I'd read a book on the Me110/210/410 instead.

[Die Hard]

The 603 was used in the Ta152, the 605 in the Bf109K. The whole line was always exclusive to the 109 save for a few cases. Such as the Bf410 apparently also using the DB603.

No DB 603 powered Ta 152 flew operationally to my knowledge. The few Ta's that saw service had Jumo 213E engines. Also, it's Me 410, not Bf.

[Die Hard]

Really? Interesting point of view. It is all about the Ta152, all versions and covering some of the 190D development and 190 development in general. So whether it's 100% correct about other aircraft is really quite irrelevant. If I wanted that info I'd read a book on the Me110/210/410 instead.

How do you know that what he writes about the 190/Ta is correct when he writes such obvious mistakes/falsities in his book?

[33Vortex]

How do I know you are correct when you're being such a jerk?


Seriously, get off my back. I don't care who you are or what you do but if you don't know how to behave I give less than a ****.

[Die Hard]

So I'm being a jerk by pointing out your errors? Be prepared to meet a lot of jerks in this forum then.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Okay, drama queens, calm down.

I've seen the wiki quotes but have been unable to verify a claim by Angelucci/Matricardi (they published a little Rand McNally aircraft guide) that the AR240 could be, under some circumstances "a dangerous aircraft" to fly.

I'm finding very little on the 'net regarding the handling - other than the early insufficient roll an yaw control.

It looks as though development went on from '40 -'42 but only 15 units were built. I've also seen claims that it was used on the eastern front as recon and Mistel one-way tripper...

Also, what's with the ducted spinners? These are not the pitch control spinners seen on the FW189 but instead seem to be used for some type of air management.