Ta 152H-1...what it is and what it is not ?

[Hristo]

If you don't stop hijacking this Ta 152H-1 thread, I will reopen my account, shot you down again and strafe your sorry chute.


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 10-26-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Ok I will take it back to topic.

The Ta152H-1 never saw any combat either.

Only the H0 (zero) aircraft saw combat, which lacked the stellar performance of the H1's due to manufacturing problems of fitting these engines with GM1 and I believe also MW50.

And thats straight from the book (written by a German author, from Luftwaffe and Focke-Wulf records) that you Luftwaffe guys have been touting as the Ta152 "Bible" throughout this thread.

So the Ta152H1 is as much of a fantasy "never saw combat" aircraft as the P-51H.


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[F4UDOA]

Hmm,

Getting offtopic a bit (sorry Hristo) but.

Grunherz,

There were 555 P-51H built during WW2 and they were at least partially deployed even if they didn't see combat. The same goes for the Bearcat. Built in production, in significant numbers and deployed. The TA-152 hardly qualifies as a production vehicle. How many in total were built? Somewhere between 10 and 30 depending on the source right? Just because 2 or 3 of these a/c may have seen 5 minutes of combat does not make them a WW2 fighter either. Remeber these are Perk Planes. The TA-152 barely qualfies as a proto-type by allied standards. Even the performance numbers of the TA-152 aren't clear becuase the varient that you want, the TA-152H-1(all 2 of them) never saw combat either. So relax and let Pyro worry about what qualifies as a "Perk Plane" in AH.

Nath-BDP,

The F4U-4 speed exceeds 400mph well over 30,000ft, hardly worthless. Also why do think the TA-152 could out turn a F4U-4? Your wingloading is still higher(41.39 vs 39.80). It's just good compaired to another FW-190. Besides it rolls so slowly that the F4U could break and be gone before the TA-152 could half roll. And the 4800FPM climb is accurate is you look at the URL I posted. 4.9 minutes to 20K. I guess you will be spending allot of time at 40K.

Later
F4UDOA


[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 10-26-2000).]

[Vosper]

Horten flying wing, I loved those in the AOE 46 expansion  

Maybe AH could, eventually (as in longterm) have a SEPERATE arena for the birds that were nearly in the war, like 51H, F8F, F7F, etc etc.

But, back to the topic (sort of) - having the high-alt 152 to hunt down the buffs would be better than the low alt version, since there's enough planes down low for any particular mission, but few enough for high-alt missions (which those HQ raids turn into)

Cheers

[Dinger]

My fault.  Change the second one to read as follows:
 

Originally posted by funked:
Höchstgeschwindigkeit mit Notleistung am Boden

Top speed with emergency power on the deck.


Höchstgeschwindigkeit mit Notleistung in Volldruckhöhe

Top speed with emergency power at maximum pressure altitude.


Eingeklammerte Werte gelten für Sondernotleistung (Start-u. Notleistung mit MW50) Bei Fw 190A-8 für Notleistung und erhöhtem Ladedruck!

Values in parantheses are valid for Special Emergency Power (Take-off and Emergency Power with MW 50); in the FW 190A8 for Emergency Power and raised boost pressure.

[funked]

Right Dinger, I assumed it was altitude they were referring to.

Interesting to note there is no MW 50 on the Fw 190A-8.  This agrees with the Fw manual for the aircraft.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-26-2000).]

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

The Ta152H-0 had no problems whatsoever dealing with any allied planes it faced over the last 4 months of the war. P47s, Tempests, Mustangs, Spits or whatever. It was faster than all of them at higher combat altitudes outurned all of them at all alts  except the spits, and by all pilots accounts and the figures in the Ta152 book outclimed all of them at the high altitudes where it was meant to fight. It was a great plane which was constantly attacked by both sides as the LW pilots were unfamiliar with its shape, yet is didn't suffer catastrophic loses. The Ta152 was said to be the best Focke-Wulf Fighter of the war, by the experieced pilots who flew it- but of course
what would they know, their names weren't Leutnants funked and Vermillion. One of them said that he considerd the Ta152 his life insurence policy for the last few months of the war. Surely this man (an experienced real life WW2 fighter pilot) was mad and stupid to say something like just because we all know that funked and verm are the real LW experten who diligently flight tested these aircraft and flew them in real combat, outnumberd 10 or 20 to 1, and under attack by both sides. Now you guys dont argue with me about your opininons of the Ta152 argue with its pilots who consider it their best plane of period and who backed up their trust in the machine  with some great accomplishments vs overhwhelming enemy superiority. I just dont get why you guys insist on a plane like the P51H, that never did anything but fight at airshows, to counter the awful useless garbage ( according to u guys) Ta152. Personally im sorta sick of the allied guys supposed kindness of telling the LW types just how bad any particular plane would be in AH, any time its adoption to the planeset comes up. Im sure you all mean well to spare us the inconveniene of flying the uselesss Dora, or the even more useless Ta152, but if they are so bad why do you seems so reluctant to have them introduced. Surely they would all be sitting ducks and easy targets. Im not saying they will be the best planes or the most dominant, but they will be a more balancing factor in this IMHO stupid little LW vs. Allied debate. Right now the axis have no real hi alt fighter, the G10 is good but at those alts the mustangs just run or dive away and if they dont want to fight well thats that. A Dora with MW50 could do 453 Mph at around 23K (Eric Brown's figure), plus it would be more controlable than a G10 at these speeds. Maybe thats why you dont want it in here? And yes Doras did have MW50 after some of the earliest examples. Sorry if this is an offensive post to anyone, especially funked and verm, but im a little upset about the attitude some you guys show. You bash the planes capability saying its useless in the MA and then hope to spare the LW types the hardship of flying thes buckets by suggesting they never be included in AH. And now you are so confident of the Ta152s garbage status all you want added in the MA is a plane that never fought in any war. Yes a bunch were made, but so what. Werent some of u guys saying before that the 262 shouldnt make it in here because only a few ever fought, out of the 1100 built. Or even that the Ta152 shouldnt be included because so many of its small producion run were strafed awaiting delivery? Well thats tough on the P51H cuz it never saw service at all anywhere. Ever hear the phare often applied to LW super planes "too little too late", well the 51H was too late to even see fighting in WW2. Again sorry if this angry post but this attitude you have on the 152 "IT SUCKS TOO BAD TO FORCE IT ON OUR LW FRIENDS SO WE BETTER MAKE SURE THEY CAN FLY THE 51H" is getting to me. Sorry.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[Westy]

 My my Grunherz. No one, absolutley no one said the TA-152 was garbage. Try not to wear your emotyions on your sleave.

  And please back up you claims otherwise all you are doing is posting your opinion. Which, from what I've seen is a might tad over board on the LW-Uber-Alles side. Which is fine. Except with you it has appeared to cloud your grasp of reality.
 How about you back up your claims and statements with the actual pilot accounts. You'll get a little further in believability too if  you would use real facts and figures from these books too. Other here have. You're using conjecture, infatuation and a liberal dash of inaccurate paraphrasing.

And if I was a LW pilot at the time I'd sure as hell would have wanted the aiplane too. It was a case of at least here's something that I might be able to survive in (fast at least allows one to run away better) versus being dogmeant in an earlier 190 or 109 version.

 Course. That is if the ME-262 was not available for me.

  -Westy


And P.S: The P-47M was there for the last four months of the war too and it could eat the TA-152 alive.  

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 10-26-2000).]

[F4UDOA]

Groinhurtz,

The bottom line is that allied supporters on this board don't care what Nazi A/C you want to bring into the game as long as there is some accurate fligth test data to model it with. The LW types only want to fight against 1943 technology and that's it.
I say bring on your ME 262 and 163. More cannon fodder for my F4U.

BTW, what in the hell makes you think a
TA-152 can out turn anything? It doesn't have low wing loading. It's just lower than the FW190D-9 and thats about it. It rolls more slowly so getting into a turn will be creeky at best. Just because some little Sour Kraut says it turns better doesn't feed the bulldog. You need to provide some engineering data for that one. Maybe one of those uber engineers is on the web?

-F4UDOA

[LJK Raubvogel]

I agree Grunherz, why do the tech police keep trying to convince us of how poor the Dora and the Ta-152 are? I could care less if they aren't better than a Runstang or a Corsair. I know they will give me a little better chance than the a/c we have now. Hell, if they are so pitiful, then the Allied cheerleaders should welcome the hundreds of easy kills they will provide.

As far as the P-51H thingy......if it never shot anything down, or was never shot down, then it wasn't really involved in World War 2, was it? The production #'s don't make a rat's bellybutton of a difference. That's pretty much a black and white issue, I'm not sure what's so confusing about it.

p.s. F4UDOA....since you want to call Germans "Sour Krauts", is it ok if I call you "trailer trash"
, or "redneck"? Just wondering.
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 10-26-2000).]

[Westy]

"production #'s don't make a rat's bellybutton of a difference. "

<COUGH>blow job <COUGH>

[LJK Raubvogel]

Well, I'm not really sure what that's supposed to mean. Could you explain please?

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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[F4UDOA]

LJK Raubvogel,

When refering to the Nazi scum third reich?
Why yes, it is ok. Why, do you have something nice to say about Nazi's?

Nobody is bashing your plane by the way. Just saying prove it. I know why the TA-152 won't turn well. Do you?

And just for the record it is the AH Geshtapo(SP) that is saying that the P-51H can't be modeled. Why, I thought the TA-152 was uber?
What are you afraid of? It doesn't even have a single cannon.

BTW, I am far closer to Urban Euro trash than I am trailer trash. Hard to be a redneck when your from a large city.

F4UDOA

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

All of what I said is in the Harmann Ta152 book. Which is really pretty straight forward on the capabilities and limitations of the Ta152H-0. It basically said that the Ta152H-0 was fully capable of performance in the class of the P51 even without the use of GM1 and MW50 . About the turning and climbing issue the book quite clearly stated that Ta152s used their superior climbrates and tight turning ability to evade both allied and  LW attacks. If you remember that famous fight with the Tempests on the deck one of the things the book said was that the fight quickly ended up in in a tight turn battle which presented the 152 no problems but in which the Tempest stalled and spun into the ground. Interestingly you say something about some LW-uber-alles attitude, well the truth is quite reverse actually. Every time a good LW plane like Dora comes up for review the allied types bash it all to death saying how it could barely fight off a spitV. It just seems the allies have this uber attitude thats why all of u get into some kind of fit every time a capable LW plane is discussed. Do you want me to quote page numbers for all these useless pilots combat accounts (like what would they know). I will gladly do it if it would make you happy I have the book upstairs. Maybe I should get all of you to meet one of Ta152 pilots if he is living now, so you can all tell him you think he was wrong when they thought Ta152 was fully capable of fighting all the late war alled planes on equal terms? Again plese dont disagree with me take it up with the author Dieter Harmann, The Books Publisher, or try to see if any of the 152 pilots are still alive and "enlighten" them. And again I dont intend this post to be offensive to anyone.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Oh BTW if the 51H is modeled then the Ta152H-1 must be modeled with all the goodies. So you guys will have an nice 15-20mph top speed advantage but thats about all.

thanks GRUNHERZ