Frame 1

[Nefarious]

Good post Wxman.

[PFactorDave]

IMO what is gamey, is allowing the horde to mass by knowing the enemy's target, by what time they have to strike and being able to deduce the general direction they will come from, but I understand the conscessions needed for gameplay.

The point of FSO IMHO is to offer an alternative to the Main Arenas. And yes in the end it is about score. That's why points are assigned and tallied. All games need a winner and a loser. This is achieved through air combat, strategy and tactics. If all you look forward to is furballing, then I would suggest that you remain in the MA.

A little hostile sounding, I really don't disagree with you that much...  I agree that there should be some unknowns as far as targets.  The commanders of the attacking side should be able to choose from a list of possible targets.  Then if they want to send small bomber groups to several targets as decoys, no problems.  But single fighters that supposedly can imitate entire formations of bombers is rather silly. 

I just think that there is room for improvement in how FSO works.  I'm not claiming to be the supreme master of all thinngs that will decree the answer from on high.  I'm just tossing out thoughts.  Sorry if I stepped on your toes by suggesting that your tactics are gamey.

[Hajo]

Great post WxMan.  It is apparent some complaints actually translate into "I got no Killz."

The everyone wants an edge attitude seems to prevail in a few and they are the most vociferous.

Their attitude can ruin a Scenario when a CiC trys gaming the game. No CiC has done that so far in FSO.

History and fun is why I participate.  DGS featured long flights of boredom then 10 to 15 mins of sheer terror.

Same with this FSO!  For about 45 mins was just forming up and looking and the radio chatter picks up

as enemies are spotted and fight begins.  That my friends is reality!  That is what most of us I dare say

strive for.  With the reality comes a great deal of fun if you have good planning and a good attitude.

If one doesn't like that and wants only furballs within 10 mins and no structure please keep

your game in the MA.

And I do agree with Krusty on the 32 plane limit.  One would think by this time that would have been addressed.

JG/11 and JG/2 was great fun!

Hajo

[MjTalon]

  Hajo
That was fun indeed. I could only imagine what those B26 pilots were screaming on vox when JG11 had an entire head on pass on the stream. Many bombers went down within the first 30 seconds of combat.

 

[Stoney]

Didn't the CM's issue a statement against tactics like this?

The rule is that all objectives must be attacked by a credible force (squadron strength or more) by T+60.  We instituted that rule to disabuse the community of the idea of flashing a base with a single fighter at T+59, and then having the main attack come in at T+75 or some other time after T+60.  There is no prohibition against flashing bases for deception purposes.

[PFactorDave]

It is apparent some complaints actually translate into "I got no Killz."

I hope that wasn't directed at me.  I got a killz in the frame.   

[Big Rat]

<S>Kermit,

Your 190's came into that B24 force without hesitation to do as much damage as possible.  Tenacious is the word that comes to mind.  Us close escorts often had to hold fire becouse of your proximity to the bombers.  So  to your 190 force, they were very determined despite the odds.  Oh yea that should have been 10+p-51 and a p-38, I wanted a cannon

 
BigRat
332nd

[WxMan]

A little hostile sounding, I really don't disagree with you that much...  I agree that there should be some unknowns as far as targets.  The commanders of the attacking side should be able to choose from a list of possible targets.  Then if they want to send small bomber groups to several targets as decoys, no problems.  But single fighters that supposedly can imitate entire formations of bombers is rather silly. 

I just think that there is room for improvement in how FSO works.  I'm not claiming to be the supreme master of all thinngs that will decree the answer from on high.  I'm just tossing out thoughts.  Sorry if I stepped on your toes by suggesting that your tactics are gamey.

I apologize if you took my post as a personal attack, it was not my intent. It just appeared to me that we have a differing views of what we find appealing in this event.

As I have stated, I have a long history with FSO's. I have seen it evolve from what my perception of a violent chess match it once was, to more of a carnivorous tug of war it seems to be now. This is only natural as many of the participants spend a year or more in the MA before trying this wonderful venue, cementing their view on how any aspect of Aces High should be played. It has in my opinion changed the event significantly over the years. Many initially come here just for the fight and are unhappy if the battle is not on their terms, while others like me not only enjoy the fight, but get the added pleasure of denying the enemy their terms of engagement through the use of legal tactics and strategy. In this instance it was deception. A strategy that has been used in military campaigns over thousands of years. If you perceive what I did as gamey, you are entitled to your opinion, but I beg to differ.

Regardless, the defenders at A71 did a fine job. I estimate that we lost over two-thirds of our fighters and about the same percentage of our bomber force. However we took many scalps and the bombers did drop on the target. I'd like to think my bit of trickery allowed that to happen.



 

[ImADot]

Just to add my opinion (for what it's worth)...

Having 1 plane (or 10 for that matter) flash a non-target base in an attempt at deception to draw defenders away from their patrol zones, should never work.  As has been stated many, many times before, the targets and time restrictions are published for all to see.  If a non-target base is flashing, then defenders are fools to leave their station to go chasing after it.  But then again, lots of people are hungry for a kill and will do stupid things in an attempt to find one.  At the very most, perhaps they would adjust their patrol a little, but should never leave their assigned defense zone until positive ID is made on the attacking force.

So, as long as people starve for kills and can be coaxed into leaving their patrol area by flashing a non-target base, I say why not do it?

On a personal note, I was in a P38 tasked to escort bombers to a Grunt facility.  We came across the enemy defenders and engaged them.  Our orders were to force them low and/or away and to not chase them down to where we could no longer defend our bombers.  I didn't get any kills that sortie - smoked one baddie who rtb'd - he was out of the fight and I count that as a success.  I tried to stay with the bombers and on the way back home I was one of 2-3 fighters keeping an eye on 4 bomber formations to make sure they got out of France safely.

[AKKaz]

The rule is that all objectives must be attacked by a credible force (squadron strength or more) by T+60.  We instituted that rule to disabuse the community of the idea of flashing a base with a single fighter at T+59, and then having the main attack come in at T+75 or some other time after T+60.  There is no prohibition against flashing bases for deception purposes.

From what I understood in the argument during that time frame, the rule was instituted to settle what was considered an attack to meet the T+60 rule.  At that time a few fighters were doing a pass over killing radar or feild gun in order to say an attack was made to meet the time requirement.  I don't beleive it had anything to do with the radar being set off.  I dont remember any argument along flashing of radar.

Of course, my memory is fading as I get older

[Odee]

If both sides use the Radar Warning Range to detect enemy attacks, then both sides should be able to spoof or trip the radar too draw away enemy defenders.

Actually, this was a common tactic throughout the war in nearly all theaters of operation.

[Ponyace]

Air Raiders (109s) and Killuminati (190s) were tasked with defense of HQ.  The 109s were our early detection force while us 190s would be used to hit the bomber force before they hit HQ.  VF6 were also tasked with 109s for HQ defense, but only 1 showed up.

Ah, I was curious as to where the Axis was on the attack of the HQ.

Heres the story from one of the escort squadrons, MAG-7:

MAG-7 was only able to get 4 pilots over France that night. Our No.5 man discoed and No. 6 arrived a little too late. We took off from A 8 and climbed to about 28,000 ft. We were flying close escort. Everyone was nervous due to anticipated defence of the high value target. There were 30 B-24s total and about 20-28 P-51Bs escorting. As we were about 15 min from target, we got word of several 109s out in front. The largest of the three escort squadrons headed out in front to deal with the 109 (Probably why you got the call of the escorts being stripped .) The rest stayed with the bombers. About 2-3 min later, 190s appeared to our left, and those who did not attack the 109s went after the 190s. We were able to dispatch them quick enough so the bombers could drop on the HQ. We turned North and high-tailed it home.

Overall, MAG-7 didn't loose a single pilot from enemy action. Also, the buffs were able to drop on the HQ without a single complete loss of all three drones.

Well done 332nd .
That was some good bombing out there.

[Kermit de frog]

Ah, I was curious as to where the Axis was on the attack of the HQ.

Heres the story from one of the escort squadrons, MAG-7:

MAG-7 was only able to get 4 pilots over France that night. Our No.5 man discoed and No. 6 arrived a little too late. We took off from A 8 and climbed to about 28,000 ft. We were flying close escort. Everyone was nervous due to anticipated defence of the high value target. There were 30 B-24s total and about 20-28 P-51Bs escorting. As we were about 15 min from target, we got word of several 109s out in front. The largest of the three escort squadrons headed out in front to deal with the 109 (Probably why you got the call of the escorts being stripped .) The rest stayed with the bombers. About 2-3 min later, 190s appeared to our left, and those who did not attack the 109s went after the 190s. We were able to dispatch them quick enough so the bombers could drop on the HQ. We turned North and high-tailed it home.

Overall, MAG-7 didn't loose a single pilot from enemy action. Also, the buffs were able to drop on the HQ without a single complete loss of all three drones.

Well done 332nd .
That was some good bombing out there.

Very well played Ponyace.
Good luck for frame 2!
   

[68falcon]

Just to be clear using the tactic of flashing base radar is  legal. There will be no rule or guideline changed to prohibit this strategy.

[Hamltnblue]

The rule is that all objectives must be attacked by a credible force (squadron strength or more) by T+60.  We instituted that rule to disabuse the community of the idea of flashing a base with a single fighter at T+59, and then having the main attack come in at T+75 or some other time after T+60.  There is no prohibition against flashing bases for deception purposes.

Hi Stoney
If a squad follows it's orders but doesn't hit the target until say T+70 is it still in violation?
At T+35-40 we realized our orders would put us 10-15 mins behind so we changed up to compensate.  Had we followed through blindly we would have been late. We often point out potential problems but sometimes this happens.  It would be a shame if a squad simply followed orders and was penalized. The CiC's don't always have the time to do a dry run on the worse case route.