Author Topic: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"  (Read 14059 times)

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #330 on: May 13, 2009, 12:30:47 PM »
Yeah.. those don't change the fact that it's a whale.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23873
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #331 on: May 13, 2009, 12:37:54 PM »
Yeah.. those don't change the fact that it's a whale.

The majority of AH players aren't really able to maneuver anyway. So taking a whale with heavy firepower is a  logical choice. The A8 has better chances in the AH standard "joust" merge. And you get 2 perks where a D9 gives you only 1...


ooops.. I think we're getting away from this threads original topic ;)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 12:44:21 PM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #332 on: May 13, 2009, 01:23:35 PM »
To get an idea of what would happen if everything were unperked just spend a night in the DA dodging the waves of Tempests and 4-Hogs....

I have. There are alot of the planes you mention, but it doesn't seem like even the Tempest is 20%. HurrIICs and Zekes seem about as common.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #333 on: May 13, 2009, 01:31:42 PM »
Not at all, a good way to rack up a lot of kills in a short time.  It's amazing how easy it is to get others to overshoot a P-38 on the deck.


ack-ack



There is great truth in that statement :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Anaxogoras

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7072
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #334 on: May 13, 2009, 01:31:54 PM »
I have. There are alot of the planes you mention, but it doesn't seem like even the Tempest is 20%. HurrIICs and Zekes seem about as common.

XVI is the most common DA pond aircraft.
gavagai
334th FS


RPS for Aces High!

Offline RTHolmes

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8260
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #335 on: May 13, 2009, 01:37:33 PM »
you cant compare DA 1v1, DA furball lake, and MA usage because the criteria for success, and the aircraft characteristics required for success are so completely different in each.
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #336 on: May 13, 2009, 02:26:21 PM »
You are not factoring in that it has been a long time since the F4U-1C was introduced. Looking at the performance objectively, the F4U-1C is not clearly superior to the SpitXVI. In fact, it is not clearly superior to the much faster Typhoon, or the better-turning, better accelerating N1K. The logic of protecting an MA already awash in free quad cannon birds from what amounts to a very well-armed F4U-1D simply does not work. The only logic that really does work for perking the C-Hog is to prevent it from comprising a majority of F4Us in the main arena.
The Spitfire Mk IX, P-51D and N1K2-J were all in the v1.00 version of AH.  The Typhoon was added in v1.03 as I recall.  The F4U-1C utterly destroyed all four of them in terms of use.  So yes, it is clear that the F4U-1C was seen as very superior to both the more famous P-51D and Spitfire Mk IX and less famous Typhoon Mk Ib and N1K2-J.  You excuse the P-51D's higher usage numbers compared to the Spitfire Mk XVI by refering to the P-51Ds undoubted fame in HTC's primary market, yet you dismiss the fact that the F4U-1C didn't just edge the P-51D in use, it absolutely dominated it.

As to the performance, you greatly undervalue firepower at the very least.  Durability and being CV capable possibly as well.

Quote
If it were unperked now, after the initial spike settled down it *might* claim the #1 spot in total usage, although the popularity of the P-51D remains a big hill to climb. It almost certainly would not comprise 20% of sorties or even 15%. That is an unrealistic standard in a plane set that contains nearly 60 fighter models. It is a standard that has never been tested on the other perk planes and has not been tested on the C-Hog in years. It is a standard you might hesitate to use if it ever was tested and the planes you consider perk-worthy failed to make the benchmark.
We've been there before and the P-51D doesn't hold a candle to it in usage.  You keep acting like these fighters were not previously competing for use.  The P-51D, Typhoon Mk Ib and N1K2-J are not new factors when it comes to the F4U-1C.

New factors that I would consider are:

  • Maps that are less CV friendly.
  • The addition of the La-7
  • The addition of the Spitfire Mk XVI

I suspect that only the first one of those would have a really significant effect on the F4U-1C's desirability as the other two primarily fill different roles.  In some ways the Spitfire Mk VIII might intrude on the F4U-1C's territory as much as the Mk XVI due to greater fuel range enabling it to be a more offensive fighter.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #337 on: May 13, 2009, 05:03:27 PM »
Lusche's usage pie chart is interesting. The most capable unperked fighters from the USAAF, RAF, IJN and VVS have roughly similar usage and take the 4 top slots, very nicely balanced I would say :aok

The one thing that stands out for me is how far down the list the most popular Luftwaffe fighter appears - 190A8 in 16th place (its safe to assume that the #12 110-G is mostly being used as airbourne artillery rather than as a fighter). Were the 109s and 190s really so hopelessly outclassed in the late war, or is it just reluctance for AH players to fly Lw aircraft? Despite their (artificially?) high ENY values.


btw unperk everything and you will pretty much only see Tempests imo

Don't know if they were hopelessly outclassed in the real war, but in AH's cartoon war a combination of crappy guns, (generally) crappy performance, and crappy views of out the cockpit means they aren't going to get much use out of non-masochists.

Offline Kazaa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #338 on: May 13, 2009, 05:07:39 PM »
The 109K4 is the only good German LW plane, but it really does rock! :rock



"If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost."

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23873
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #339 on: May 13, 2009, 05:10:59 PM »
109 F-4 and G-2 are superb Spit 16 killers :)
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #340 on: May 13, 2009, 05:15:34 PM »
Not if there is someone with a half a clue in the Spixteen.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23873
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #341 on: May 13, 2009, 05:19:31 PM »
Not if there is someone with a half a clue in the Spixteen.

Fortunately that's extremely rare.  :)
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline grizz441

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7000
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #342 on: May 13, 2009, 05:20:46 PM »

The one thing that stands out for me is how far down the list the most popular Luftwaffe fighter appears - 190A8 in 16th place (its safe to assume that the #12 110-G is mostly being used as airbourne artillery rather than as a fighter). Were the 109s and 190s really so hopelessly outcla

My reluctance to fly them for a while was my inability to aim in them.  I was used to a good view between my gun sight and the nose allowing me to lead better in the 50 cal american planes.  Once I learned how to create crossing shots instead of relying on the aiming methods in the 50 caliber rides, aiming became easy and very deadly.

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #343 on: May 13, 2009, 09:41:55 PM »
Saying "the game has changed" since AHI does not refer to the plane set alone. There have been changes in the demographics of the player base and culture, changes in gameplay style, and possibly changes in gunnery modeling/flight modeling that will effect things. (Try getting a 1K kill now, even with a C-Hog. Not very easy)

I think gameplay, hordes and all, now favors a fighter that scores exceptionally well for out-and-out speed, OR is an exceptional turner. I disagree with your assessment, I *do* think the SpitXVI has had a tremendous effect on gameplay, its domination of most other planes in the "middle" of the speed continuum greatly blunts their effectiveness. The two most common aircraft in the arena are the P-51D and the SpitXVI. It makes sense to compare to these two first and foremostly when considering the feasibility of flying a given aircraft in the LW MA. But there is a significant difference between the two; Nearly everything slower than the P-51D can claim out-and-out superiority, or at least rough parity in maneuverability, and often enough superiority in thrust/weight, to say nothing a host of other factors where the P-51D also tends to be mediocre. The same cannot be said for the SpitXVI!

The C-Hog is at the upper end of this speed continuum, and not near enough the top of the maneuverability continuum to truly out-class the SpitXVI as a turn fighter either.

Also, did the C-Hog go unperked enough tours for its usage to "settle down?" I go to the DA frequently and C-Hogs simply do not seem to be  1 out of 5 fighters you run into.

As to the performance, you greatly undervalue firepower at the very least.  Durability and being CV capable possibly as well.

On the contrary...I realize the value of firepower. I also realize that many planes in the MA pack a punch comparable to that of the C-Hog, while possessing enough inherent advantages over the C-Hog that one cannot truly say the C-Hog is clearly superior. The most telling comparison is the Typhoon...both are 4 cannon birds. The C-Hog's k/d stats are obviously much, much higher. Yet the Typhoon is clearly superior in low-level speed...a trait that for obvious reason greatly increases an aircraft's potential to maintain high k/d rates in the MA. The only reasonable conclusion for the C-Hogs much higher k/d rate is who it is being flown by and how it is being flown...and these are factors which might *come* from it being a perk plane as much as they are reasons for it to be a perk plane!

In the end, the F4U-1C simply does not seem to enjoy the sort of performance advantage over the vast bulk of the plane set that the Me-262, Tempest, or even SpitXIV (to a much lesser degree) possess. It is in fact, not quite as good as it's stablemate the F4U-1A except for the Hispanos. Which leaves us with popularity...I find the notion of perking something that does not clearly give the player one, or better yet, many clear advantages over most of the planeset arbitrary and unfair, even if 75% of the people flew it. There is to my mind a difference between balancing the plane set through making the largest number of choices viable in the MA by perking those few planes who plainly outclass most of the rest vs. "forcing" variety when the players show a strong preference amongst equally viable choices.

There is a mitigating factor in the C-Hogs case though, it was a historically rare variant, and an aesthetic preference for keeping more common variants flying in the MA, and a similar preference for seeing something *besides* C-Hogs off of a CV, is more acceptable.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 10:05:12 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
Re: Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"
« Reply #344 on: May 14, 2009, 01:30:25 AM »
Also, did the C-Hog go unperked enough tours for its usage to "settle down?" I go to the DA frequently and C-Hogs simply do not seem to be  1 out of 5 fighters you run into.
Yes.  It was added well before the perk system (v1.01 or v1.02 as I recall) and it wasn't perked until some time after the perk system was added in v1.08.


The F4U-1C's firepower is noticably better than the Typhoon Mk Ib's.  You can't simply look at the guns and say, "They both have four Hispano Mk IIs, so they are the same."  The F4U-1C's are tighter grouped and it has 90 more rounds per guns than the Typhoon Mk Ib, allowing more liberal use of low probabilty shots.  It also has an easier time bringing them to bear due to the very much higher roll rate and superior turn rate and radius.  The Typhoon is not a post F4U-1C perking aircraft.  They were used side by side for free for many, many months and the F4U-1C's usage was very much higher.  The P-51D, Spitfire Mk IX and N1K2-J were also always higher than the Typhoon in usage terms.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 01:36:17 AM by Karnak »
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-