Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"

[BnZs]

Yes.  It was added well before the perk system (v1.01 or v1.02 as I recall) and it wasn't perked until some time after the perk system was added in v1.08.


The F4U-1C's firepower is noticably better than the Typhoon Mk Ib's.  You can't simply look at the guns and say, "They both have four Hispano Mk IIs, so they are the same."  The F4U-1C's are tighter grouped and it has 90 more rounds per guns than the Typhoon Mk Ib, allowing more liberal use of low probabilty shots.  It also has an easier time bringing them to bear due to the very much higher roll rate and superior turn rate and radius.  The Typhoon is not a post F4U-1C perking aircraft.  They were used side by side for free for many, many months and the F4U-1C's usage was very much higher.  The P-51D, Spitfire Mk IX and N1K2-J were also always higher than the Typhoon in usage terms.

Roll rate and turn rate? I was given to understand "top speed uber alles" when you were telling me why the SpitXVI is really not so very good and that the SpitVIII's roll rate disadvantage is really not so significant...

It is even harder to make a case for the P-51D's outright superiority over the Typhoons. Conclusion: The player base likes planes with white stars painted on the wing. But this has nothing to do with making the airplanes harder to deal with, so it is not a concern of mine.

[Anaxogoras]

Don't you know that roll rate, turn rate, and speed matter to different degrees depending on what kind of results you're trying to achieve?

[Karnak]

Roll rate and turn rate? I was given to understand "top speed uber alles" when you were telling me why the SpitXVI is really not so very good and that the SpitVIII's roll rate disadvantage is really not so significant...

It is even harder to make a case for the P-51D's outright superiority over the Typhoons. Conclusion: The player base likes planes with white stars painted on the wing. But this has nothing to do with making the airplanes harder to deal with, so it is not a concern of mine.

I have never said the Spit XVI isn't very good.  It obviously is, it just isn't perk worthy.

[BnZs]

Don't you know that roll rate, turn rate, and speed matter to different degrees depending on what kind of results you're trying to achieve?

Roll rate, turning potential, and lethality are vitally important for increasing the "kill" side of the equation.

Speed is vitally important for decreasing the "death" side of the equation in a multi-bandit environment.

In the real world, it is not acceptable for me to die even once, so yes, top speed uber alles.

In the game...IMO speed must be weighed equally with other factors. One of the reason I don't go in for the 262 is that being bored out of your mind while occasionally killing something that isn't paying attention to six o'clock isn't worth hundreds of perks. I find the Tempest to be the same situation to a lesser degree, and don't like it much either. Although obviously the Tempest is much more capable for typical MA "dogfighting" than the 262.

Discounting my own aesthetic/personal preferences and going strictly by asking myself the question I consider most pertinent "how does it stack up for actually *fighting* anything and everything in the set under typical MA conditions?", I would consider the three most desirable planes in the set to be the F4U-4, SpitXVI, and La7, in that order.

[Anaxogoras]

Your sarcasm detector failed.

[Delirium]

This dead horse has been beaten so much, the bones are now in powder form.

[grizz441]

No need to perk a plane that isn't unbalancing the arena.  Obviously it's a borderline plane performance wise but the decision has already been made by HTC to leave it unperked.  An unbalancing issue is the only thing that would allow them to reconsider their decision.  Since there is no unbalancing issues in the MA though, it remains unperked until something changes.  I don't understand why that's so difficult to accept.

Take the Ta152 for example for the other side of the coin.  They decided it needed to be perked.  For it to become unperked from that point on, it would take a lot of stats to show that it had no business being perked in the first place.  The stats showed it wasn't getting much use or garnering the results when it was used therefore its perk price wasn't warranted and was lifted. 

In order to get the Spit16 perked BnZ, you'll have to prove it is unbalancing the arena and I think enough evidence has already been put forth in this thread to show it is not.  You have already side stepped the question of 'balance' because you yourself know it does not unbalance the MA.    Going down this road that its performance justifies a perk isn't going to fly because HTC has already decided that its performance does not justify it.

[moot]

Just one relevant bit on the 152, it was more capable when it was introduced.

[BnZs]

No need to perk a plane that isn't unbalancing the arena.  Obviously it's a borderline plane performance wise but the decision has already been made by HTC to leave it unperked.  An unbalancing issue is the only thing that would allow them to reconsider their decision.  Since there is no unbalancing issues in the MA though, it remains unperked until something changes.  I don't understand why that's so difficult to accept.

If the benchmark for unbalancing well and truly is 20% of sorties, then obviously it does not. I remain doubtful that any plane can ever take up 20% of sorties again...we'll see when we get the Meteor.

But the fact remains that the F4U-1C and SpitXIV are not clearly superior to the SpitXVI, nor do they have  any truly unique advantages over the rest of the set. (The 262s firepower and speed beyond the reach of all prop fighters, the Tempest's clear superiority in both speed AND acceleration to everything prop driven, the F4U's combination of near-the-top speed with near-the-top maneuverability.)

Take the Ta152 for example for the other side of the coin.  They decided it needed to be perked.  For it to become unperked from that point on, it would take a lot of stats to show that it had no business being perked in the first place. 

Huh...a glance at the Ta-152 performance stats would've told anyone that it is not clearly superior to the P-51D, 109 K, D9, or other rides at reasonable MA alts, so I don't really understand why it was perked in the first place.

The stats showed it wasn't getting much use or garnering the results when it was used therefore its perk price wasn't warranted and was lifted. 

And yet, now it seems to have the highest k/d of all non-perked planes...are we going to perk it again because of that? Or, are we going to instead look at its lack of popularity and raise its ENY to 35? Or are we going to do something *reasonable* and look at its performance? 

[Lusche]

Huh...a glance at the Ta-152 performance stats would've told anyone that it is not clearly superior to the P-51D, 109 K, D9, or other rides at reasonable MA alts, so I don't really understand why it was perked in the first place.

Performace stats do not tell the whole story. Theres more to a FM than a few numbers like turn radius, speed & climb rate.
That's why despite all it's superb performance on paper the Spit XIV struggles to live up it's reputation. It's hard to quantify handling.

[grizz441]

If the benchmark for unbalancing well and truly is 20% of sorties, then obviously it does not.

Forget about the 20% thing.
By what benchmark of 'balance' would you say the Spit16 is unbalanced?  Look at the stats and tell me how the Spit16 is unbalancing the arena.

But the fact remains that the F4U-1C and SpitXIV are not clearly superior to the SpitXVI, nor do they have  any truly unique advantages over the rest of the set. (The 262s firepower and speed beyond the reach of all prop fighters, the Tempest's clear superiority in both speed AND acceleration to everything prop driven, the F4U's combination of near-the-top speed with near-the-top maneuverability.)

I wouldn't call that fact, far from it in fact.  The F4UC has qualities such as speed, guns, ammo quantity, turn radius with full flaps, and endurance that would make it superior to the Spit16.  You do realize the F4UC out turns the Spit16 with full flaps engaged, turn fight on the deck?  As for the Spit14, don't know enough about it to comment. 

Huh...a glance at the Ta-152 performance stats would've told anyone that it is not clearly superior to the P-51D, 109 K, D9, or other rides at reasonable MA alts, so I don't really understand why it was perked in the first place.

HTC looked at the whole picture, including its performance stats in the strato, and made a decision to perk it.  Arena stats have shown it didn't need to be perked so they unperked it.  Show us arena stats that show the Spit16 needs to be perked!

And yet, now it seems to have the highest k/d of all non-perked planes...are we going to perk it again because of that? Or, are we going to instead look at its lack of popularity and raise its ENY to 35? Or are we going to do something *reasonable* and look at its performance? 

You are are trying to separate two different important factors in determining perk status.  K/D & Popularity.  You have to look at the two together, not separately.  If only m00t and I flew the 152 and no one else was allowed for the entire tour, it would have some inflated stats.  But its popularity would be astronomically low.  You have to take the two together.  If a plane has an incredibly solid K/D to go along with high popularity, then you can make a case for perkage.  The spit16 has high popularity, but not the K/D ratios that I would call unbalancing by any stretch of the imagination.

[hitech]

I fell off a cliff once while rock climbing. It hurt.

But Hitech you should jump off this cliff again, becaue today the sun is shining.

I think Ill pass I am fairly sure that the sun will not effect the pain of feet slapping ground after 30 foot fall.

I have seen some reaching for straws before, but BNZ is far above what I have ever seen before, every time someone showes him what he claimed is falls, he just reachas for more claims and ignors the real facts just to try justify what he wishes, and not what is true.

HiTech

[E25280]

Game, Set, Match.

[Anaxogoras]

The mob wins.

[BnZs]

Okay, that is uncalled for.

I have said the SpitXVI is faster than 70% of the plane set and 41% the LW plane set. That is true.

I have said that it out-turns, out-climbs, out-accelerates, and out-rolls a great deal of what it also runs down. This is true.

I have said that this perhaps greatly effects the viability of a very wide range of models in the MA. This should be self evident.

None of these are falsehoods. They constitute reason enough IMO to say that it perhaps warrants a light perk.

But if perking the Spixteen would cost too many noob's subscriptions, understood. You don't slaughter the milk cow in tough times.

I fell off a cliff once while rock climbing. It hurt.

But Hitech you should jump off this cliff again, becaue today the sun is shining.

I think Ill pass I am fairly sure that the sun will not effect the pain of feet slapping ground after 30 foot fall.

I have seen some reaching for straws before, but BNZ is far above what I have ever seen before, every time someone showes him what he claimed is falls, he just reachas for more claims and ignors the real facts just to try justify what he wishes, and not what is true.

HiTech