Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"

[Anaxogoras]

[Krusty]

Simple fact the spit 16 is not even the most flown plane. Does not have the most kills.

You look at last tour's stats and it just barely has a few kills less than P-51D. However, if you add Spit16 and Spit8 kills (essentially the same plane, folks shouldn't separate them when considering their fate) the total is 30% more than the P-51D.

[Karnak]

You look at last tour's stats and it just barely has a few kills less than P-51D. However, if you add Spit16 and Spit8 kills (essentially the same plane, folks shouldn't separate them when considering their fate) the total is 30% more than the P-51D.

You are really reaching now.  May as well include the Spit IX, V, I and Seafire while you are at it.

[Krusty]

Nice deflection... but you know the answer is "no"

Spit16 and spit8 only a couple of MPH off of each other across the entire envelope, both trade off very minor climb rate advantages, both have almost identical turn radii.

Comparing a 320mph spit9 to a 350mph spit16? NOW who's throwing out bad arguments?

EDIT: Corrected spit9 deck speed, was thinking spitV, at 309MPH

[BnZs]

Okay...can't really see the point of your Zeke-Goon comparison. I did not state as a problem that the SpitXVI enjoys a top-speed+turning+HP/weight advantage over a cargo plane of all things, or that it holds ever advantage over a single fighter. I stated as a problem that it is faster than many, many fighter planes which it also out-classes in turn, HP/weight, and usually roll. IOW, to quote a player who has been around the block a time or two..

BnZ, you are absolutely right in saying the Spixteen renders the vast majority of the planeset irrelevant.  

These fighters are immediately below the SpitXVI when a weighted sort is done for low-alt speed, deck speed being probably what counts the most for survivability under MA conditions.

15.SpitXVI
16.P-47D-11
17.Fw-190 A8
18.Fw-190 F8
19.P-47D-40
20.Ki-84-Ia
21.P-38L
22.Fw-190 A-5
23.P-47D-25

All of these planes, with one exception, the Ki-84 (which has its own debilitating weaknesses, such as loosing parts at high speeds), not only suffer from a speed disadvantage, but also a very large turning and HP/weight disadvantage against the Spitfire at typical MA alts. To top it all off, everything but the Fw series has a roll disadvantage at most speeds and the Fw's edge is slim at best.

It cannot be said that these are "irrelevant EW planes", since all but two of them are *only* available in LW! Only the Fw-190 A-5 is even available in the EW, and as a perk plane. (Which is kind of bizarre in a game with unperked SpitXVIs and unperked La7s in the LW...the 190 may out-run everything in the LW but it out-turns *nothing*...but I digress.)


I am skeptical that having one LW fighter (well, actually two, what with the La7) so completely superior to so many planes, even LW ones, constitutes any sort of desirable "balance" in the LW MA.

It is truly amazing the staws and conclsions to prove something that is OBVIOUS not true. Simple fact the spit 16 is not even the most flown plane. Does not have the most kills.
HiTech

Another thing the SpitXVI does not have is a publicity machine in the form of the History Channel and etc. telling everybody that it was the "best plane of WWII". The fact that the XVI comes in a very close second to the single most famous American plane of WWII is itself telling.  The largest single percentage of the LW MA prefers a plane which is somewhat mediocre for LW MA conditions, the P-51...I am well aware of this, but what of it? I am not concerned with whether or not a fickle public likes a particular plane, rather what it can do relative the rest of the set. It is also clear looking at the 2008 stats that SpitXVI usage would probably outstrip P-51D usage if it were not for competition from other members of the Spit family, or if the P-51 family was divided into more separate models itself.

[Karnak]

BnZs,

You may be a gungho American who dislikes hearing about the rest of the world but, and I hate the break it to you, the Spitfire is the most famous aircraft of WWII and many people here, Americans too, are at least mild history buffs.  In addition, I have seen plenty of fawning over the Spitfire on channels like the History Channel.

There were tours in AH1 where the Spitfire F.Mk IX topped the P-51D in total kills.  Spitfires are not weird, foreign aircraft.

[BnZs]

BnZs,

You may be a gungho American who dislikes hearing about the rest of the world but, and I hate the break it to you, the Spitfire is the most famous aircraft of WWII and many people here, Americans too, are at least mild history buffs.  In addition, I have seen plenty of fawning over the Spitfire on channels like the History Channel.

You make so many false assumptions about my motivations Karnak...next I half-expect you to dig out the old "well you just HATE Spitfires" saw...

The average person who comes into this game will have heard the American planes hyped to the heavens. There is no "Spitfire" episode of Dogfights, they don't re-show "Spitfire" or even "Battle of Britain" on TCM very often that I've seen, instead "Flying Tigers" "Flying Leathernecks" even "Fighter Squadron" and etc. ad infinitum...for goodness sakes man, I'm not bragging about this fact, I come closer to lamenting it.  The fact so many MA planes are as good/possibly better in the P-51D's niche as a boom-and-zoom fighter yet do not garner anywhere near the usage highlights the uselessness of using popularity as a criteria in AHII.

Edit: Would you be arguing so strongly against me if the SpitXVI was a "weird foreign aircraft"? I began to suspect not. I don't begrudge you loving an aircraft series, but that shouldn't blind you to reason regarding relative performance. By comparison, I also GV quite abit. The U.S. has *one* tank in the game. It is a perked tank. Do you see me saying it should not be perked? No, because the Firefly's perk price in this game is entirely justified. It should quite possibly be perked higher...but again I digress.

[BnZs]

There were tours in AH1 where the Spitfire F.Mk IX topped the P-51D in total kills. 

Now it is too slow for LW MA play though? 

[Guppy35]

Not much chance you are gonna let this go is there, even knowing it's not going anywhere?

[BnZs]

Not much chance you are gonna let this go is there, even knowing it's not going anywhere?

Well, I'm not wrong about it...so no. And we seem to have mostly gotten past the calling each other names point, that is something. Maybe Karnak will also realize that I don't harbor some deep, dark, inexplicable hatred of Spitfires too... 

[Urchin]

<edit - I'll take it to email>

[DamnedRen]

I suppose if everyone could fly all of our virtual planes to their full potential then you may have a valid argument. As it stands, we don't.

Ren

[BnZs]

I suppose if everyone could fly all of our virtual planes to their full potential then you may have a valid argument. As it stands, we don't.

Ren(Image removed from quote.)

Ren, in an environment where Tempests are unperked, most of them are horribly flown and amount to easy kills. Your point doesn't stand, *no airplane* is going to be flown to its full potential most of the time, simply because most players are far from perfect as pilots.

The Tempest in average hands is good for little besides a pick-n-run racer with somewhat difficult handling and mediocre maneuverability...it doesn't cover flaws in piloting to near the extent the SpitXVI does.

[BaldEagl]

Nice deflection... but you know the answer is "no"

Spit16 and spit8 only a couple of MPH off of each other across the entire envelope, both trade off very minor climb rate advantages, both have almost identical turn radii.

Comparing a 320mph spit9 to a 350mph spit16? NOW who's throwing out bad arguments?

EDIT: Corrected spit9 deck speed, was thinking spitV, at 309MPH

I like how you conveniently omit listing the VIII's two biggest disadvantages to the XVI to make your point; roll rate, particularly at higher speeds, and gun package.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised as there's a lot of that going on in this thread.

Those two performance measures alone place them in different envelopes forgetting about the extra fuel load/weight that the VIII can carry.

[BnZs]

Correct. Krusty, the 5mph difference in OTD speed between the SpitXVI and the SpitVIII is enough to make the difference between being slowly caught and slowly extending the distance for many planes. And the roll rate difference is huge for both offensive and defensive considerations.

EDIT: Krusty *is* right to consider the SpitVIII AND the SpitIX as competitive airplanes that take away from the SpitXVI's usage...more so than the P-51B takes away from the P-51D. Seafires should not be included because that comes of CV usage.

I like how you conveniently omit listing the VIII's two biggest disadvantages to the XVI to make your point; roll rate, particularly at higher speeds, and gun package.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised as there's a lot of that going on in this thread.

Those two performance measures alone place them in different envelopes forgetting about the extra fuel load/weight that the VIII can carry.