Author Topic: An objective look at "fishy" flying  (Read 2648 times)

Offline moot

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An objective look at "fishy" flying
« on: May 17, 2009, 07:15:41 AM »
This is in the same vein as the HO thread.  Not a personal attack whatsoever, but a clinical look at the anatomy of a "suspicious" player/move. 

First, the context: what happens in these instances?  No one ever knows, because the accusers almost always have nothing but their word to support their claims.  That's what's called "anecdotal evidence". The same thing happened in WWII.. "That weird looking enemy plane did something incredible!"  But they have nothing but a vague recollection - no precise numbers to make a precise quantitative rather than subjective, qualitative assessment. 
I'm going to say the C word here, but much the same way Germany allows you to display the swastika for strictly documentary purposes devoid of political agenda, here I think I'm allowed to illustrate how (if nothing else, for about a dozen clueless people stirred up by a certain player who needed everyone to know he was quitting on ch200 yesterday) this is why it's literally useless and counterproductive to openly talk about cheating.
1) It's nothing but anecdotic hearsay.  Player A flawlessly executes an excellent maneuver on Player B, who's a hungover and brand new player (primed to scream wolf), and from that anecdote you've got an amplification of what REALLY happened, everytime the anecdote is passed along.  And then you don't even need to be new. You can be a relatively old player and still do it, like the film below shows.
2) If you're serious about dealing with cheating, there's more sense in reporting what you see concretely (film, screenshot), and directly and quietly to HTC than in endlessly mouthing off about how more or less common it is, with no supporting evidence other than "I'm quitting so there's no reason for me not to tell the truth":  2a) Cheating's not common. 2b) "The people have right to know" is poop-stirring nonsense.

Second, the important part: Hard evidence. How little do you have to out-fly someone to trigger some echo of rumors started by one clueless and/or confused player?  See for yourself:
Ta152 vs 190A5 
So what happens here?  The A5 is on the deck (390 TAS, 1kft) flying across the 152's path (360 TAS, 4kft). 152 spots it and dives right to the A5's six (less than 150 yards out), at this point the speeds are 430 and 340 respectively.  Ta152 shoots a burst, only 20mm land for no lethal damage, and A5 sharply breaks to the left (A5 @ 330 TAS, 152 @ 400).  Ta152 lets the A5 do its evasive to get into a lagging position (saves E while keeping a mostly dominant position - still behind the A5's 3-9 line - that means the A5's rear hemisphere, while letting (forcing) the A5 show its hand) and once it's clear that the A5 isn't feinting, does a hard-rudder turn that's aimed at bringing itself back close on the A5's six while scrubbing speed so that when it gets there, it's slowed enough to avoid overshooting (which the A5 could still cause). 

That's all it takes to make someone perceive something fishy. And without film there's no telling what's what.  Yes, the Ta152 probably would have been right near the limit of its wingtips if it had made that left turn (to match the A5's evasive) in strictly coordinated flight.  The line of thought the A5 would have best followed wasn't screaming wolf but something like Holmes' axiom: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" --  All the A5 pilot needed to realize was that there's more than one way to make even something as basic as a flat turn, and/or that the 152 wasn't going all that fast.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 07:35:59 AM by moot »
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Offline Max

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2009, 07:56:55 AM »
<--- puts sticky note on monitor to revisit this thread after 2+ cups of strong coffee.  :O

Offline Harp00n

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2009, 08:00:20 AM »
Is this a thread about gameplay?  :noid

Offline moot

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2009, 08:07:07 AM »
Chlorine in the pool.
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2009, 08:26:53 AM »
Nice flying Moot.

This is a prime example of hundreds of people who play or played this game that feel the need to accuse, to deflect from their own personal suckage, and will remain a member of the suckage pool because of that defect.

"OMG !!! ... that guy just beat me ... unpossible ... He must be cheating or the flight model is screwed because their is no way that anyone can kill me"

rather than ...

"OMG !!! ... how the heck did he pull that off ? ... let me check the film and/or ask him (politely) how he did it, because I would like to add that to my repertoire so I can maybe use it in the future"
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2009, 08:32:16 AM »
The sad part of this is "most" people are going to miss that point and instead focus on the "a whine has been recorded" aspect  :rolleyes:

Offline BnZs

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2009, 08:34:44 AM »
Moot:
AHII allows one to aim one's nose even while rotating with amazing amount of control at insanely low speeds. Judging by your films, you do this alot, and that is probably what most people invoke the C-word for. Something that is built into the modeling and every player can learn to do is by definition NOT cheating.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Strip

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2009, 08:38:04 AM »
m00t,
Looked like the 190A5 misjudged E states and excuted a lazy 90 degree flat turn. In the same scenario reversing his turn would have set you up for an overshoot. Which is perfectly inline with what you said and illustrates proper energy control. Good fight with Messiah near the end, hes a good stick like yourself.

BnZs,
I agree and did you noticed the speeds at which he was aiming? Even in the lower 70s he was able to setup for a shot. It takes a good amount of skill to do that and it seperates the great from the good.

I am still laughing at Skyrock talking about shades.....somethings never change.

<S> Strip
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 08:41:21 AM by Strip »

Offline BnZs

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2009, 09:02:27 AM »

BnZs,
I agree and did you noticed the speeds at which he was aiming? Even in the lower 70s he was able to setup for a shot. It takes a good amount of skill to do that and it seperates the great from the good.


Yes...one can question the realism of being able to control a machine with a 1G stall speed in the ~100mph IAS range at 70mph IAS at full throttle without accusing a good fellow like Moot of "cheating". Which would technically be a reason to meet at dawn for coffee and rapiers/pistols, if we retained any civilized customs in this society. ;)
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline RumbleB

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2009, 09:46:19 AM »
Well, the majority of MA is complete mediocrity in terms of air2air skill. Most people are not used coming up against someone who doesn't know that the throttle doesnt need to be at 100% and doesn't shy away at the slight noise of a stallbuzzer... oh and realizes you can go vertical and not just fly around in cricles/stickstir while trying to run away.

When I started playing I saw some incredible ninja watermelon but instead of moaning about how impossible that was, I tried to replicate it instead..

Unfortunately there are going to be people who take out their insecurities and lack of self belief on others

"I'd never be able to do that so he must be fishy/cheating!!!"

Offline Wingnutt

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2009, 09:55:59 AM »
I was at around 12K in a spitty 9  when I spotted a corsair coming at me..  from high 1oc it didnt go for the HO but was just trying to get past me (had ord for attack town I was defending)  I started to turn into him with the goal of passing just behind him to begin the persuit.. as I so so I notice his gear is down..      :huh         I think hes trying to force an overshoot so I back off a bit... but he just maintains his shallow dive...   So I pour on the juice and begin to catch him.. after about 10 sec I fire a burst at D600  landing a few hits and he starts jinking all over the place, but to no avail, I wait till he settles down and another burst takes his wing off.

then suddenly I see a name pop up and yellow and an angry voice can be heard..  "I hop your really proud of yourself"    I type PM him "huh?"   

"there is no way you could have caught me.. NO WAY, not in a spit9..  You had to have warped up to catch me... yea, i bet your proud of yourself"

then I PMd him   ".... your gear was down"

"oh... oh god it was?  oh.. oh man im sorry, never mind then.."

after that he was really nice, and ended up being pretty cool.

but in theme with the topic of the thread, thats a good example of how easy it is to have a "ZOMG HAX!!!" type moment in this game.

Offline Mace2004

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2009, 09:59:07 AM »
This is a pretty simple one.  The 190 set up the 152's attack with his own left turn. The 152 didn't even have to pull that hard because the 190 turned to bring him right on his own six and sweetened the shot.  Look at the 152's g-meter and he didn't pull more than 5.5 G in the whole engagement.  Had the 190 broke right (or even just reversed his turn) early in the first attack the 152 would have had a much harder time hacking the turn.  After the 152's first shots he's actually pretty close to a flight path overshoot, had the 190 simply reversed then he probably could have neutalized the 152 but, again, he continued in a left turn and let the 152 just lag him to the kill shot.

I will point out that there is something in the film that isn't quite right but it isn't about the players or a "cheat". Notice that at the start, the 152 pushed to over -4g.  Basically AH under models the pilot effects of negative G and because it's designed that way it's not a cheat. I don't have the G specs but, even if -4g isn't beyond the 152 airframe -G limit NO pilot can realistically do that and maintain control.  Physically, a pilot can handle a very short duration -G spike that large, however, he won't stay in his seat doing it.  Yes, I know that aerobatic performers do this sort of thing but they have restraint harnesses specifically designed to hold a pilot down in his seat.  The far simpler harnesses mass produced for fighters (especially in WWII) typically do a lousy job of keeping the pilot down in his seat since 99.9 percent of the time maneuvers are positive to zero G.  When 800 effective pounds of pilot pulls up on the harness the pilot would have first pounded his head against the canopy and been knocked senseless (remember they only wore soft leather helmets) and would not be able to reach the rudder pedals and probably not even the stick.  In RL, it's very hard to get a pilot to push to -1g much less -4. Let me add that a restraint harness that will hold your butt in the seat also restrains your ability to turn and check six.  Getting pilots to fly with their lap belts as tight as possible has always been a battle because it can be such an impediment and most end up flying with them too loose.

Instead of a negative G push, a quick low-g barrel roll underneith to the right would have still aligned fuselages, kept positive G on the plane, and the outcome would have probably been the same.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 10:07:39 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline moot

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2009, 10:18:40 AM »
I see that, thanks Mace.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 10:25:50 AM by moot »
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Offline Brentlo

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2009, 10:28:33 AM »
Moot,

I like it when you defend yourself everyday and post these movies.  Good training which I try to emulate.  Why does this happen all the time?  Is it reputation/an attitude that brings the C word out?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 10:33:42 AM by Brentlo »

Offline moot

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Re: An objective look at "fishy" flying
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2009, 11:22:22 AM »
I'm not sure Brentlo.  Perpetuating the rumors when it's an extremely rare occurence, at most, contributes for sure though. They distract players that still have a lot to learn, from the right way to look at the game.  Like RumbleB said, all you have to do is look at the film. In that respect, new and old players alike are both on even footing. Everone plays by the same rules, the same physics.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 11:23:57 AM by moot »
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