Bomber speed suggestion

[Motherland]

The gunners didn't have near as much practice either

[B4Buster]

I disagree.

There's nothing easier to kill in this game in the MA's as your average buff player.

If you find shooting down bombers more difficult than shooting down fighters, you actually do not agree with Lusche

Oh?

I guess I read your text wrong.

In most fights, I find myself behind the guy in 2 turns...guess I'm just that good? 
Bombers are much more difficult...even a mediocre gunner is a force to be reckoned with when you're by yourself trying to take out a box of buffs.

[Stoney]

You've likely had hours and hours more practice than your typical pilot going into combat...I think that if attacking buffs without kicking the bucket had really required that sort of precision out of the poor Krauts, then it would have been the B-17s and not the 56th that attrited the Luftwaffe down and drop-tanks or North American Aviation's most famous bird would have been unnecessary inventions.

But, as you know, the type of attacks that the Luftwaffe made on bomber formations in real life look very different from what you typically see in the MA or SEA. 

[Krusty]

I agree that the speed of the buffs probably makes little difference in the exchange rates with fighters, it is the lethality of defensive firepower is the main point.

This slipped by me unnoticed.


In fact, it makes all the difference in the world. Even with 3 drones and 30 guns all pointing in the same place, when you run across bombers going at slower speeds (I have on many occasions run across B-17s flying at 150-200mph historic speeds in the MA), this counters all the advantages of the drone system.

If you can make any attack other than a rear attack, you WILL. One of the biggest problems in this game is that you can NOT make any attack other than a rear angle dead-6 attack on most bombers. They're flying so fast you can't even make one slashing attack before you're in chase mode and they're in front of you.

I've even dove down on B-24s with 10k alt on them and after 3 slashing attacks all my E was gone and I was chasing them dead astern. It's not a matter of positioning, luck, tactics, it's a matter of them flying so fast no matter WHAT you do you end up behind them instantly. Historically this is fubar.

When I have run across bombers flying at slower speeds I've actually taken great delight in setting up slashing attacks, being able to zoom up and dive down towards them, etc. Very much like the many reports pilots gave about attacking them in WW2. When your closure rate is 250mph you have a lot of options. When it's 30mph you have no options, period.

[moot]

3 drones?  30 guns?

One of the biggest problems in this game is that you can NOT make any attack other than a rear angle dead-6 attack on most bombers.

BS!!

[grizz441]

BS!!

+1
 

[Lusche]

 One of the biggest problems in this game is that you can NOT make any attack other than a rear angle dead-6 attack on most bombers.

(...)

When your closure rate is 250mph you have a lot of options. When it's 30mph you have no options, period.

Recalibrate your throttle.

[whels]

Lusche nice charts but for a Trainer i thought you would know better.  Speed is not the whole story especially
at higher alts.  In Ah with buffs zoomin around @ full throttle at 20K+ alts, fighters have 2 maybe 3 attack runs before
they are in chase mode. because fighters that high take so long to turn back for another attack, that they
will bleed off that extra speed advantage and never regain the extra alt they had.

[moot]

Totally wrong.. It just takes more time.  If your plane is one of those that's indeed barely ahead of that ~31kft B17 peak speed, you brought the wrong tool for the job.  No amount of complaining is going to make nerfing historical performance the right thing to do.  It was lame in Il2, and it'd be lame in AH.

[hitech]

actually HT, i could care less what speed they go, i kill them easy now. you program the game
so you select what realism you want. but i guess we cant suggest any.  heaven forbid a plane had to
do something it had to do in RL.

Lusche nice charts but for a Trainer i thought you would know better.  Speed is not the whole story especially
at higher alts.  In Ah with buffs zoomin around @ full throttle at 20K+ alts, fighters have 2 maybe 3 attack runs before
they are in chase mode. because fighters that high take so long to turn back for another attack, that they
will bleed off that extra speed advantage and never regain the extra alt they had.

Hmm, does not sound like caring less to me?

I can just see the 3 buffs in formation, trying to get home.

REar Gunner, Gunner to pilot incoming 6:00 Hi,
whew he missed that pass, Captn, can you speed up for our run home,
Sorry rear gunner, I can not go full throttle per the base commanders orders, he would rather have us die.
Ok sir, I understand that we may not abuse our plane buy running full throttle, because we need those good engines to take us to the crash sight.

[whels]

Hmm, does not sound like caring less to me?

really? i thought i was replying to someone posting charts, with a counter post. stick you head
back in the sand HT

[Lusche]

Lusche nice charts but for a Trainer i thought you would know better.  Speed is not the whole story especially
at higher alts.  In Ah with buffs zoomin around @ full throttle at 20K+ alts, fighters have 2 maybe 3 attack runs before
they are in chase mode. because fighters that high take so long to turn back for another attack, that they
will bleed off that extra speed advantage and never regain the extra alt they had.

first, buffs at 20k and above are the exception in AH. I'd guess less than 10% of all buff sorties are flown at that altitude. Those few players invested a lot of time to climb to that altitude, which is basically the only real defense buffs have. Yes, it IS the point of climbing to 20+k - making it more difficult for the attacker and having a better chance to survive.
"Forcing buffs" to fly at reduced power while fighters still being able to fly at full power is just nerfing the buffs and making them even more vulnerable.
If you would apply the same limitations to both of them, it's the same situation again  for fighters vs high-alt buffs.


But still, you can do slashing attacks repeatedly even at 25K in a 109G-2 with gondolas even now, even with B17s at full power:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nbdizimqmf1

It's a long battle at 25k. After first trying my luck with a 6 o'clock attack, I have to resort to slashing attacks. Sometimes the 17's try to climb away, but mostly they fly level at about 270mph, their maximum speed.

[Stoney]

Lusche nice charts but for a Trainer i thought you would know better.  Speed is not the whole story especially
at higher alts.  In Ah with buffs zoomin around @ full throttle at 20K+ alts, fighters have 2 maybe 3 attack runs before
they are in chase mode. because fighters that high take so long to turn back for another attack, that they
will bleed off that extra speed advantage and never regain the extra alt they had.

The keys are speed and attack geometry.  First, the planes I fly go more than 150 mph (or 2.5 miles per minute) faster than the bombers at those altitudes.  If you're in a tail chase after 2-3 passes, you set up poor attack geometry for that aircraft.  Its like playing billiards--you have to lead the cue ball.  Ensure that whatever attack you make allows you the ability to reattack without subjecting your aircraft to punishing defensive fire or destroying all of the kinetic and potential energy of the aircraft.  Even at altitude, the only time when I get killed is when I get impatient and don't create sufficient energy and geometry to survive a successful pass and set up the next one (a.k.a patience).

And, when Moot said:

If your plane is one of those that's indeed barely ahead of that ~31kft B17 peak speed, you brought the wrong tool for the job.

he hit the nail right on the head.

[Beefcake]

If your plane is one of those that's indeed barely ahead of that ~31kft B17 peak speed, you brought the wrong tool for the job.

It's like that one time I tried to engage some B17's in an F4F......didn't end well for me.