Author Topic: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast  (Read 5083 times)

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2009, 01:34:50 PM »
Humble, that happened due to constant pressure exerted onto the vertical stab by vicious rudder movement. You try holding up a piece of carbon fiber in 240 MPH winds.

The airplane was within the tolerances allowing full movement of all control surfaces. The scenario in which an experienced pilot "broke" an airframe via control input is alarming. The NTSB happened to side with airbus but the reality is that AA felt that the flight control system was the root cause not the pilot. The simple reality is that pilots should fly planes...not software. Further the combination of very brittle components and a fly by wire flight system is a recipe for disaster. I'm guessing that the airframe here just failed catastrophically under high g's.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2009, 02:06:57 PM »
Very brittle components? Is the Airbus weaker than other jets?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2009, 02:15:48 PM »
I'm also wondering where Humble gets his info. I've never heard composite materials being described as "brittle" before.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Golfer

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6314
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2009, 02:20:01 PM »
However...  The flight system was supposed to prevent that.

There were some fundamental problems with AA's training program regarding unusual attitude and upset recovery.  They had fighter pilots teaching fighter pilot things which we now know don't work with transport passenger jets.

The A300 does not have the same logic and protections built into it as the A320 you're referring to whether or not you know it.  All Airbus are not created equal.  The 300 has a very sensitive rudder control system.

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2009, 02:32:24 PM »
Simply put yes. Composites are basically epoxy. While metal will bend composites will flex and then break. Brittle does not mean weak, simply that when pushed beyond design tolerance the structure will fail and not bend. Basically instead of "popped rivets" and a bent airframe you get catastrophic failure. The reality is that a lot of the current technology in the Airbus is both cutting edge...and unproven. This applies to both the airframe itself and the avionics. The possibility that we have a convergence where the limit of airframe engineering and complexity of fly by wire computer driven avionics meet in a place that is potentially threatening to the airframe itself is very real. In any airbus the computer is actually flying the plane. The avionics interpret the pilots input and can and do modify them based on what its sensors tell it. This is heart of AA's comments to the NTSB. The sad reality is we're going to have a lot more aviation accidents over the next decade. A combination of inexperienced/low time/poorely trained flight crews combined with "just enough" engineering and focus on cost saving unproven technology has made it inevitable.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2009, 02:35:24 PM »
Brittle in the sense that the failure of ceramic is brittle compared to metal's.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2009, 02:37:43 PM »
That's plain silly humble.

Btw why are you using a computer to post here , using a chinese abacus should be safer , it's a proved technology !

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2009, 02:41:32 PM »
There were some fundamental problems with AA's training program regarding unusual attitude and upset recovery.  They had fighter pilots teaching fighter pilot things which we now know don't work with transport passenger jets.

The A300 does not have the same logic and protections built into it as the A320 you're referring to whether or not you know it.  All Airbus are not created equal.  The 300 has a very sensitive rudder control system.

thats not completely true IMO. Airbus refused to hand over significant amounts of data to the NTSB. As for the flight control systems on the 320 (or any other airbus) the truth is that no one but airbus and the system manufacturer actually know the reality. Here is a snippit from Quantus which has had significant issues with A330-300's and turbulence....

Secret data may give Qantas a QF72 clue
Ben Sandilands writes:

A secret partition (internal computer wall) on the US-made air data inertial reference unit (ADIRU) that Qantas blames for the in flight crisis that forced QF 72 to make an emergency landing at Learmonth on 7 October is about to be unlocked.

Its existence, only hinted at in the preliminary ATSB report into the accident, is causing consternation among airlines for whom there is now a question mark over the serviceability of equipment critical to the control of modern airliners. They simply don't know the full information held by the ADIRU.

Crikey has been shown part of a private Qantas presentation on the accident, which injured 60 of its passengers and 14 of its crew aboard the Airbus A330-300 involved.

It draws attention to frequent unusual movements in the tail of the jet and disclosed that all three ADIRU units had be sent back to the maker, Northrop-Grumman because of third level data that was partitioned from examination by operators or accident investigators and could only be read in the Northrop-Grumman workshops.

This deeper level of data is apparently prohibited to users to protect proprietary aspects of the design from being copied or interfered with.

However the issue that has now emerged for the carriers including Qantas is that this secrecy might prevent them becoming aware of any deeper layer faults that should be fixed before an airliner is allowed to continue in service.

The Australian, French and US incident investigation authorities, and Airbus and Qantas will all be present this week when Northrop-Grumman starts unlocking all of the data contained in the three units on the A330, the two that appeared to work properly, and the one that ran amok.




"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline ROX

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2209
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2009, 02:46:33 PM »
Sad.  Thoughts and prayers for family & friends.  :pray


ROX

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2009, 02:47:50 PM »
That's plain silly humble.

Btw why are you using a computer to post here , using a chinese abacus should be safer , it's a proved technology !

I'm sorry but if a given computer had a predisposition for PS failure that would kill the user you would want to know about it. The reality is that we have a combination of material choice, design criteria and avionics going where no one has before. A very significant event (AA 587) went largely unnoticed. Please tell me the last time any control input on climbout during normal conditions caused catostophic airframe failure?
Further that the manufacture refused to provide data to the investigating authority.

It is very possible that the current generation of composites is simply not suitable for use in aviation airframes.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2009, 02:55:15 PM »
Please tell me the last time any control input on climbout during normal conditions caused catostophic airframe failure?

Is flying through the wake of a B747 "normal" conditions?
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline rogwar

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1913
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2009, 02:56:46 PM »
Is flying through the wake of a B747 "normal" conditions?

Yes

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2009, 02:57:14 PM »
Lol composite is definately weaker than metal. That's why US army issues cast iron armor to all the combatants..

No wait..  :rofl
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2009, 03:01:02 PM »
I'm sorry but if a given computer had a predisposition for PS failure that would kill the user you would want to know about it. The reality is that we have a combination of material choice, design criteria and avionics going where no one has before. A very significant event (AA 587) went largely unnoticed. Please tell me the last time any control input on climbout during normal conditions caused catostophic airframe failure?
Further that the manufacture refused to provide data to the investigating authority.

It is very possible that the current generation of composites is simply not suitable for use in aviation airframes.

You're speaking of too many point at time (btw I apologise for the missing smiley in my previous post I was trying to be witty not offensive :))

Computer + composite is not always bad think of the shuttle for example of modern combat aircraft, it work.

And on commercial planes too, your post is (and I apologise again) very similar to a Boeing biased post of the period when Boeing was not up to date on composites :)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 03:04:14 PM by straffo »

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2009, 03:03:51 PM »
Brittle in the sense that the failure of ceramic is brittle compared to metal's.

Composite materials used on aircraft are not made from ceramics. Most are carbon fiber reinforced polymers, or in other words: Plastics.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi