Author Topic: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast  (Read 5153 times)

Offline humble

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2009, 03:06:40 PM »
Lol composite is definately weaker than metal. That's why US army issues cast iron armor to all the combatants..

No wait..  :rofl

I'm sorry if a lack of common sense effects you. "brittle" is not a reflection of "strength" or hardness. Lets look at a diamond, very hard...but very brittle and easy to fracture if hit from the wrong angle as well. Lets return to the fundamental fact here. An experienced pilot flying in normal conditions caused catastrophic failure by control input at a speed in which the plane in question was certified for 100% travel of all control surfaces.

Now lets say that was a school bus and the driver took a turn off a freeway ramp at 25 mph (a speed rated safe for both the tire and ramp) and that caused a blow out that killed every one on the bus...what do you blame the driver or the tire? Add in the fact that the bus was equipped with "smart drive" a computer system that over rode the drivers control inputs at its discretion....

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Offline humble

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2009, 03:09:31 PM »
You're speaking of too many point at time (btw I apologise for the missing smiley in my previous post I was trying to be witty not offensive :))

Computer + composite is not always bad think of the shuttle for example of modern combat aircraft, it work.

And on commercial planes too, your post is (and I apologise again) very similar to a Boeing biased post of the period when Boeing was not up to date on composites :)

Airbus isn't up to date on composites either IMO. Thats not an attack on airbus, simply a statement of fact.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2009, 03:12:29 PM »
Humble, in your analogy the bus driver would have to violently steer left and right repeatedly. On most vehicles on the road today that would break something, or even flip the vehicle. Full rudder input to either side would not have damaged the tail of the A300. Oscillating the input left and right very quickly did.
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Offline moot

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2009, 03:12:45 PM »
Composite materials used on aircraft are not made from ceramics. Most are carbon fiber reinforced polymers, or in other words: Plastics.
No kidding.
Quote
Composites are basically epoxy. While metal will bend composites will flex and then break. Brittle does not mean weak, simply that when pushed beyond design tolerance the structure will fail and not bend.
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the failure of ceramic is brittle compared to metal's.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2009, 03:13:29 PM »
Airbus isn't up to date on composites either IMO. Thats not an attack on airbus, simply a statement of fact.

Which composites do they use, and what composites are "up to date"?
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2009, 03:21:54 PM »
While metal will bend composites will flex and then break.

You do know that they use carbon fiber composites to make fishing rods? It's one of the most flexible materials known to man.

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Offline moot

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2009, 03:35:54 PM »
Failure mode?
And I'm not arguing either way. Only what Humble meant.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2009, 03:37:51 PM »
Usually delamination.
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Offline 68Wooley

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2009, 03:42:32 PM »
...Add in the fact that the bus was equipped with "smart drive" a computer system that over rode the drivers control inputs at its discretion....

Its already been mentioned, but I guess you missed it: the A300 that crashed in New York did not have fly-by-wire. Its an older (1970's) design, predating the A320 which was the first Airbus to use the technology.

Offline humble

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2009, 04:02:23 PM »
The question isnt fly by wire specifically its the combination of avionics and material choice. If you read the NTSB report you have 2 different "theories". Basically airbus in effect claiming "pilot error" and AA claiming that the design created issues itself. The design of the A300-600 generates 6 times the force for the same control input as the A300B2. My question is fundemental, the choice of a material prone to catostophic failure at a speed of 250 knts.

It's not an entirely accurate comparision but using AH lets look at a plane suffering catostophic failure "at speed" vs one where you could stomp on the rudder during autoclimb and break the plane. I can recall no other incident ever in the history of commercial flight in the jet age where a pilot has induced structural failure at moderate speed via control input. This is IMO clearly a design flaw...

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Offline humble

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2009, 04:14:23 PM »
FYI....

American argues that Airbus knew that the A300-600 and A310 were prone to rudder overcontrolling from three or four prior incidents dating back to at least 1991 that were presented in NTSB testimony (AW&ST Nov. 25, 2002, p. 44).

Calculations showed that these rudder motions overloaded the fin beyond limit load in several cases, and beyond ultimate load (1.5 times limit load) in at least two instances--a point at which the fin might be expected to break off. One of those ultimate load violations was on American's Flight 903 in May 1997 and the other was on an Interflug A310 in 1991. Other cases include an Air France Flight 825 incident in December 1999 on an A310 where limit load was exceeded.

A key document, American says, is a June 19, 1997, Airbus internal memorandum stating that in Flight 903's "rear fuselage, fin and empennage the ultimate design loads may have been exceeded." This knowledge did not come to the NTSB or American until the document was revealed after the Flight 587 accident more than four years later.

"With Interflug, you could say it was a one-off," says Bruce Hicks, an American spokesman. "But with 903 you have to connect the dots, and Air France 825 clinched it."

American claims Airbus knew of overloads but did not inform operators or authorities in sufficiently specific language that would catch their attention, nor did the manufacturer convey data about the series of rudder overcontrol incidents on the A300-600 and A310.

An independent study requested as part of the NTSB Flight 587 investigation showed that at higher speeds, where pilots rarely use the pedals, the rudder of these two types is 3.2-10 times more sensitive (in terms of deflection per incremental force) than other transports, with a breakout force several times larger than the incremental force for full deflection (see graph, p. 45). An NTSB poll of Boeing, Douglas and Airbus histories showed that no other type had this history of fin overload.

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2009, 04:21:30 PM »
The A300's rudder is certified to handle only a full deflection; that is, to travel from neutral all the way right or left, but not to swing alternately from far right to far left. It wasn't until the rudder had done this three times, with load forces almost twice the fin's design capacity, that the vertical stabilizer finally gave way. It is the pilot's responsibility to know the design limits of his aircraft and never exceed them. No matter how sensitive the rudder controls (and Airbus should be, and was criticized for that), a series of full deflections right and left cannot be viewed as anything other than pilot error.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 04:23:30 PM by Die Hard »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2009, 04:30:17 PM »
So from what I am reading then the computer thought the rudder input was needed and moved the rudder as the pilot requested. So the computer system can allow movements exceeding structural design capacity?
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Offline 68Wooley

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2009, 04:38:16 PM »
So from what I am reading then the computer thought the rudder input was needed and moved the rudder as the pilot requested. So the computer system can allow movements exceeding structural design capacity?


What computer?

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Air France Jet Missing Off Brazil Coast
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2009, 04:40:21 PM »
Fly by wire................ computer. Or did I miss something.......
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