Fighting for the wrong side.

[mechanic]

If somehow the terrorists 'win' after all this sand dune warfare, we will be the nazis in 70 years.

[SuBWaYCH]

Rufus, my deceased grandfather served in the 100th Infantry as well. His name was Charles Meyers. He was originally a medic and then got handed a rifle and got told "go kill germans" (nazi's). After the war he and some others set up a small medical clinic in a somewhat small german town. I"m interested in knowing if there is any connection between my grandfather and your grandfathers brother.
 

[Angus]

History is indeed written by those who conquer, however the printing press, the camera, and now the internet make it hard to hide everything. (Makes it easier to twist things though).
Anyway, Ripley's fuel for thought:
"Would you help a poor starving accused terrorist that was on a hideout next to your home? Of course not - even if you _knew_ they were wrongfully accused for their position, helping them would be suicide for you. The jews of the time are the terrorist of today."

I presume "accused" terrorists rather than the real one, since jews didn't do anything, they were simply the jewish people.
As for helping it would't be suicide in our world, since our western world is a long way from i.e. Nazi Germany where people lost their head for uttering the wrong words.

[mechanic]

 The governments may die and change, but people will always be the same. All it takes is a hue and cry to be sounded and the pitch forks and torches come out. We cannot blame people for being human. Faced with the same media and government pressure mixed with the way the world was looked 70 years ago most of us would have behaved the same as the German people. There were good or bad, strong or weak, shepards or sheep, back then and there always will be.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

History is indeed written by those who conquer, however the printing press, the camera, and now the internet make it hard to hide everything. (Makes it easier to twist things though).
Anyway, Ripley's fuel for thought:
"Would you help a poor starving accused terrorist that was on a hideout next to your home? Of course not - even if you _knew_ they were wrongfully accused for their position, helping them would be suicide for you. The jews of the time are the terrorist of today."

I presume "accused" terrorists rather than the real one, since jews didn't do anything, they were simply the jewish people.
As for helping it would't be suicide in our world, since our western world is a long way from i.e. Nazi Germany where people lost their head for uttering the wrong words.

I'm pretty sure that if you helped a person that your government has deemed an enemy of the nation you would also become enemy of the nation. Same set of rules (i.e. no rules, no rights) would be applied to you aswell.

Jews were officially at the status 'enemy of the nation' in holocaust times.

[Rich46yo]

Also, remember at this point in time that the United States was still segregated and we put Japanese in camps. It's not like racism was absent from the rest of the world.

Thats a little different then official Govt. policies to annihilate entire populations using Industrial methods while stealing their land and wealth to make living space for their own citizens. All with the complicity of thousands, if not millions, of your soldiers, Bureaucrats, Politicians, citizens.

As to the Japanese, and I'm not justifying anything here cause it was wrong. At the time Japan wasn't as much a country as it was a "Nation Family" and any word from the Japanese Emperor would in essence be considered the same thing as Jesus talking to Christians.

In the end we were wrong. Our west coast Japanese citizens were Americans first. But still it must have been a scary thing to think about in those early months as the IJA and IJN charged thru Asia with a barbarity that even turned the Nazis stomachs. So we weren't even close in such kinds of cruelty compared to our enemies. Yes we put them in camps but we didnt kill or torture them. However, and even tho it has nothing to do with the Holocaust, it is a shameful chapter in our history.

the very simple fact, is that the soldiers in the field, and the airmen, were just the same as our young men. they were fighting for their country. they were simply fated with being born on the wrong side.

Think so ? circa 1934

"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath:
I will render unconditional obedience
to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht,
and, as a brave soldier,
I will be ready at any time
to stake my life for this oath."

[BlauK]

Rich, you seem to stress the oaths quite a lot. Have you ever considered that it is just a formality every soldier participates in. Maybe some of them savour every word to their hearts and stand strongly behind what they are repeating in the ritual. I bet some just repeat the word without thinking much about it.

When Finnish SS-volunteers made the oath, there were lots of prior negotiations about the words in their oath and about the independence of the future unit, which was wished to join the Wehrmacht all the way from the beginning. They did not want to make the oath to Hitler as a Leader of the German Nation or to National Socialism and eventually a different milder wording was agreed on between Finnish and German officials. In the end, by the day of the oath, those promises had changed and they were still read the one and same German oath   Not all of them spoke or even understood German

I have also heard from an Estonian colleague who had to serve 2 years in Soviet army in the 80's how he and other Estonians made fun of the Soviet military oath. They intentionally pronounced some Russian words wrong so that their meaning changed into some Estonian humorous or rude words.

So, what I am basically trying to say is that in some situations the military (or any other) oath may not come from one's heart and mind. It is just a ritual or a formality. Just think how many people divorce regardless of how they make oaths to love each other until death do them apart

-----


Here is something more related to "fighting on the wrong side"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/estonia/3965268/Russians-protest-at-Estonia-SS-calendar.html

[Motherland]

Thats a little different then official Govt. policies to annihilate entire populations using Industrial methods while stealing their land and wealth to make living space for their own citizens. All with the complicity of thousands, if not millions, of your soldiers, Bureaucrats, Politicians, citizens.
(...)
 Yes we put them in camps but we didnt kill or torture them. However, and even tho it has nothing to do with the Holocaust, it is a shameful chapter in our history.

That's exactly what I said.

I was addressing the points in his post where he said the Western Allies were 'boyscouts' and that he didn't understand the racism in Germany. I even said that things that were done in the US, UK etc. don't come anywhere close to what was done and Germany and Japan.

You can stop trying to make me look like a Nazi sympathizer.



"I swear by almighty God this sacred oath:
I will render unconditional obedience
to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht,
and, as a brave soldier,
I will be ready at any time
to stake my life for this oath."

That sounds like a pretty standard oath...

Pretty similar to the US Armed Forces Oath, at least

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

They don't say "President Barack Obama, Commander in Chief of the United States Military" or whatever, but it's the same concept.

[Rich46yo]

You can stop trying to make me look like a Nazi sympathizer.

Last time it was somebody else screeching this. Where on earth did you get the idea I'm trying to make you/call you, or anybody else, a "Nazi sympathizer". It just isn't true so please get off it. This is simply a historical discussion and nobody is calling anybody anything. Points are simply being made, and should it get into a name calling thing? Then I'm gone! I cant survive another "mass report" by cry babies.

Read the US oath and you'll see we take oaths to #1 uphold the Constitution and #2 Obey the "elected" Head of state. The same Head of State that has to follow the law his ownself.

Nothing and nobody is perfect. Not even Democracy. The scariest thing about WW-ll is in what happened to such a accomplished, Christian Nation like Germany. If it can happen to Germany then really it can happen anywheres. And it happened bit by bit, year by year, pogrom by pogrom, over the course of a Decade Hitler and his closest cronies drew all of German citizenry, military, Industry, Church, Police into their conspiracy of racial warfare by inhuman method.

To water it down, make exuses, search for comparisons, really does a dis-service to those who fought against it and defeated it.

As for the Finns, and even the Norwegians, the Danes...ect while some of their Jews were victimized, or even turned over, "most" were shielded at great risk. It took a lot of nerve to tell the Nazis "No" were not giving you our Jews so you can murder them.

Rich, you seem to stress the oaths quite a lot. Have you ever considered that it is just a formality every soldier participates in. Maybe some of them savour every word to their hearts and stand strongly behind what they are repeating in the ritual. I bet some just repeat the word without thinking much about it.

I took the oath myself and it is no small matter to a soldier. Most of all to a German soldier who considers all his honor is bound to his oath. Ask any veteran here, or active soldier, and I'd bet they would say the same thing.

When Finnish SS-volunteers made the oath, there were lots of prior negotiations about the words in their oath and about the independence of the future unit, which was wished to join the Wehrmacht all the way from the beginning. They did not want to make the oath to Hitler as a Leader of the German Nation or to National Socialism and eventually a different milder wording was agreed on between Finnish and German officials. In the end, by the day of the oath, those promises had changed and they were still read the one and same German oath   Not all of them spoke or even understood German

Maybe you should hold them accountable instead of making exuses for them. The Finns are an honorable people. Otherwise they wouldn't have protected their Jews at such great risk to themselves. They didn't take such oaths lightly and no doubt many were shamed by it after the war. It is what it is and while you can forgive you/we should never forget.

An Estonian taking a Soviet military oath would be like me taking a United nations oath. I'd spit on the ground after saying it and then make an obscene gesture. I'll bet those taking an oath to protect Estonia now think different. An American soldier would protect the Constitution to the death. So would a Finnish one in his nations service now.

[Motherland]

Last time it was somebody else screeching this. Where on earth did you get the idea I'm trying to make you/call you, or anybody else, a "Nazi sympathizer". It just isn't true so please get off it. This is simply a historical discussion and nobody is calling anybody anything. Points are simply being made, and should it get into a name calling thing? Then I'm gone! I cant survive another "mass report" by cry babies.

When people 'quote mine' and take things out of context they're usually trying to suggest something. Even if you weren't, the tone suggested otherwise. I usually read my posts to myself in my head a few times before I submit them (and after, as you may be able to tell from the amount of edits I use) so that I don't come off aggressively when I don't mean to. If you weren't trying to before I suggest you do the same.
I don't mean that in a condescending way, just a piece of advice.

[Rich46yo]

The only qoute I took from you was about the Internment camps where I basically agreed with you.

How you got the "Nazi Sympathizer" thing out of it is beyond me. Boy, its beyond the galaxy.

Which means, I think, I bid goodby to this thread. Before 15 pals mass report me to Skuzzy for calling them "nazi sympathizers".

[CAP1]

The only qoute I took from you was about the Internment camps where I basically agreed with you.

How you got the "Nazi Sympathizer" thing out of it is beyond me. Boy, its beyond the galaxy.

Which means, I think, I bid goodby to this thread. Before 15 pals mass report me to Skuzzy for calling them "nazi sympathizers".

dude.....it's understood, that you, and many many others took their oaths seriously. the thing is though.....put yourself back there now.

 you're given a choice......join, or die. or go to a "re-education" camp....translates......or die.

which would you choose given that choice? i'm sure a LOT of them took the "join" option. in that instance, i would also imagine they simply repeated what was read off to them, not thinking, or paying any mind to it.

 now they;re given a weapon, and shipped to the front. now, they have zero choice.....they HAVE to kill their enemy in order to even have a slim chance of survival.

quite a large number of them were probably just kids(18+) like our infantrymen were.

 the truly insane ones were the ones running the "camps"
 

 and i did lose someone there.......my great uncle(after whom i'm named) was a medic. he was kiled, while trying to pull injured infantrymen from the line of fire.

 now....by all of the above, i in no way condone anything that was done back then.......just simply stating my opinion.

[bustr]

Rich,

You ever researched who the bolshevik's were who actualy starved some millions of Ukranians to death before WW2? I've only looked into this in the last few months. You might look into who ran the Cheka during the Ukranian famine 1928-32. It was pretty much a christian holocost in itself.

[BUG_EAF322]

A statue of a German soldier who saved 2 children in Goilre Holland still a delicate case so it had to be planted in someones garden.

http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/dutch-news/Dutch-honour-_humanity_-of-German-soldier-_47157.html

[jdbecks]

I cant speak for others, But when I was in Afghanistan and the rest of the guys I was with all said and thought the same thing, we dont give a damn about queen and country, we are just fighting to save each other..I dont even remember my oath of allegiance, it was just something I had to do to get in the army.

I fought for the man standing next to me