Fighting for the wrong side.

[Angus]

What?

Do you think morality isn't relative and subjective?

It gets all grey. The defining is...at best...difficult.

[jdbecks]

And the Western Allies did fight and defeat something totally evil in WW-ll. I could recomend plenty of books and web sights if you dont learn history over there.

I assure you that America and the UK and many other countries are not knights in shinning armour,

For instance in Iraq and Afghanistan the allies have done some terribly evil things..even today there is a thing as propaganda, but lets not go down this route as it opens a can of worms, but if you think our toejam dont smell..then you need to take off your blinkers.

for instance, did you know during WW2 the British tortured German officers in London?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/nov/12/secondworldwar.world

would YOU not say that was evil and inhumane?


Despite what people say, I honestly do not believe them..when your in the toejam getting rpgs/rockets fired at you..the last thing your thinking is " God save our country..our country is so great bs" your thinking... about 2 things! To stay alive, and to keep your buddy alive, your not thinking about some BS oath of allegiance..or to serve your country proud BS, and your also thinking about how to kill the enemy. Yes during moments I felt proud to do what I was doing, Mostly I was proud and enjoyed being with the men I was with, War is dirty and its not pleasant due to friends being killed men are capable of savage revenge, and its easy for a historian to turn around and say how evil these men were without ever feeling the emotions that was being felt at the time.

I hold no grudge against an Afghan/ Iraqi person or judge them any different to anyone else, they have a big culture difference which is hard for some people to understand because its different, yet some of them are far more interesting and intelligent than some English and American people I have meet in my time, and now I look at it from there view..take of your blinkers while I describe this because it may offend you,

the Allies invade Iraq and occupy the country, they have had hospitals and schools destroyed in the fighting and are angry, no proof of WMDs have been found so they suspect the war is about oil, they dont like the way they are treated by occupying forces, and start joining the Iraqi resistance that maybe supplied/ trained by Iran, to try and claim back their country, they call themselves freedom fighters, we call them terrorists.

a similar thing happened in ww2, France got invaded by Germany and occupied..French civilians received training and weapons from the allies, for instance SOE. They then conducted guerilla style attacks on the Germans, bombing railroads etc, we glorified these people, honoured them etc, we called them the french resistance, what did the Germans call them?  if it was today they would have been labeled terrorists by the Germans.

the point im trying to make is that war is not black and white and during WW2 us allies were not all Angels that did nothing wrong or inhumane, please dont start debating the references to Iraq/Afghanistan i was just trying to use them as an example, lets not get political

[jdbecks]

also,

Instead of discussing who done what, and who was more evil. It would be better to talk about acts of heroism and bravery by both side of the war and remember the heroes and the sacrifices they made, Lets also never forget the courage and discipline both sides displayed by all those who fought and answered their nations call to arms to fight.

[Rich46yo]

a similar thing happened in ww2, France got invaded by Germany and occupied..French civilians received training and weapons from the allies, for instance SOE. They then conducted guerilla style attacks on the Germans, bombing railroads etc, we glorified these people, honoured them etc, we called them the french resistance, what did the Germans call them?  if it was today they would have been labeled terrorists by the Germans.

These were the same Germans that killed off entire races on an Industrialized scale right? By the Millions? The same ones that invaded the eastern countries killing off entire populations just because they didnt want to feed them? Taking their land for their own living space on some kind of deranged master race relocation program? Woman and kids into death camps, lined up by the thousands, shot in the head, and buried in trenches. Grotesque science experiments on children, again, as actual Governmental policy?

Then we got the Japanese. They enslaved tens of thousands of Korean woman and kept them in rape camps for their soldiers. Again as an act of Govt. policy. Their barbarity was on a scale to rival the Nazis.

So to tell you the truth I dont care what the Germans called the French resistance. I dont care what the Jap called anybody.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/koreas-comfort-women-the-slaves-revolt-814763.html

At the age of 15, she says she was taken and sent to a Japanese base in Manchuria. On her second night, before her first menstru-ation, she was raped. Soldiers lined up night after night to abuse her. She has scars below her neck from cigarette burns and says she suffers headaches from a beating she took at the hands of a Japanese officer. "I still have blood tears in my soul when I think about what happened," she says.

for instance, did you know during WW2 the British tortured German officers in London?

Oh gosh, thats really shocking. BTW after the war? We hung a bunch of them too.

[jdbecks]

These were the same Germans that killed off entire races on an Industrialized scale right? By the Millions? The same ones that invaded the eastern countries killing off entire populations just because they didnt want to feed them? Taking their land for their own living space on some kind of deranged master race relocation program? Woman and kids into death camps, lined up by the thousands, shot in the head, and buried in trenches. Grotesque science experiments on children, again, as actual Governmental policy?

Then we got the Japanese. They enslaved tens of thousands of Korean woman and kept them in rape camps for their soldiers. Again as an act of Govt. policy. Their barbarity was on a scale to rival the Nazis.

So to tell you the truth I dont care what the Germans called the French resistance. I dont care what the Jap called anybody.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/koreas-comfort-women-the-slaves-revolt-814763.html
  Oh gosh, thats really shocking. BTW after the war? We hung a bunch of them too.

what about how bad American slavery, discrimination and segregation that went on for so long? but do you honestly believe the allies were so good?

what do you want point fingers at each other all day saying who done what??  all Im saying is be a little open minded, our soup stinks too you know, I think your being a little naive

[RufusLeaking]

what about how bad American slavery, discrimination and segregation that went on for so long? but do you honestly believe the allies were so good?

what do you want point fingers at each other all day saying who done what??  all Im saying is be a little open minded, our soup stinks too you know, I think your being a little naive

Keeping the discussion within the confines of WW2, it is a matter of scale and cultural acceptance.  Yes, the US was segregated through the war.  Horrible individual racially motivated crimes were committed.  This pales compared Japanese newspaper glorifying two lieutenants' competition on who could behead more Chinese.   

Neither can be accepted by an open mind.  To equate the bad on the Allied side and the extreme institutionalized brutality on the Axis is completely off.

[bozon]

...
Look at the suicide statistics of US vets coming home from Iraq/Afghanistan. The men who keep fighting regardless do it for one thing and one thing only, a sense of duty and honor.

US wars are very different than what most other nations experience. The US does not fight on its soil and its population is not under fire. This fact selects a whole different array of reasons for individuals to join the war - among them, sense of duty and honor that you mentioned, but also plenty of other more mundane reasons. However, when your own home is being attacked and your beloved are underfire, it does not matter anymore why the war started or who is the "right" side. Nor does honor or duty play any part here and you can google "morality and humanity" after the war is over. People WILL fight on the wrong side, just because they happen to be there when it became wrong, but they are not fighting for the wrong side - they are fighting for their family and friends. It is a very primitive human behavior that is embedded in us. Dictators and other dark regimes understand this very well and exploit this.

I was serving in the IDF in the 90s when we were sitting in the security zone in S.Lebanon. I did not believe we should be there, I did not like how my country was handling the situation, but I was there squeaking and cursing because my friends were being shot at. In the last Lebanon war I was back with my unit just hours after the first barrage of rockets landed in Haifa. My service buddies all showed up even before they were called and non of them cared about the good of the country or whose fault it is that we are in this situation. What triggered all of them was an attack on civilians, people they know. All I knew was that my wife was going to work and back, every day for 30 days under rocket fire (the largest barrages were timed to the morning and afternoon when people were commuting and out of buildings) and her working place is in the Haifa bay area right in the center of the rocket dispersion area. At this point you don't give a watermelon if some building collapsed on Lebanese civilians because the building next to it had launcher vehicles in it and was bombed. When you vaporise a launcher-vehicle together with its operators crew that are trying to escape after a barrage on Haifa, you are not fighting for a cause or a country or even a "side" - you are just defending your wife.

[Die Hard]

It gets all grey. The defining is...at best...difficult.

That's what relative and subjective means.

[33Vortex]

I did not believe we should be there, I did not like how my country was handling the situation, but I was there squeaking and cursing because my friends were being shot at.

I agree with all of what you said, but find this the most important. Protecting family is a given if your home country is under attack, that will make most any man take to arms. At the front however in some distant land, your friends lives and your own life is what you fight for, as they essentially are your family.

[bozon]

At the front however in some distant land, your friends lives and your own life is what you fight for, as they essentially are your family.

errr.. that "front in some distant land" is 30 km from my house...

[VonMessa]

Thats not the point I was making. Of course when the bullets are flying an oath is the last thing your thinking about.

The fact is when you raise your hand and take that oath you are "legally bound" to it. Understand? It has the legal/moral weight of a freight train. Violate it and you going to end up in all kinds of trouble. So its probably best you actually understand and believe in it when they make you take it.

Im a Policeman and had to take an oath to uphold the Constitution and Laws of my state, "and had to take one when I joined the service". Did I/Do I think about it every day? Of course not! But I am bound by it, and so were you.

Violate that oath and your going to find yourself in a world of trouble. Cause I dont think the defense, "Aww I just needed a job" is going to help you much.

Course your probably right that oaths dont mean as much as they used to. The Wehrmacht of that era, and before, was an extremely professional and tradition bound service, and one with a high level of discipline. You can bet taking that oath meant a lot to both the soldiers, their command, and their Fuhrer.

And for the folks that didn't get a choice about the oath?

I suggest you have a nice conversation with Vilkas. 

He'll tell you a little story about a tiny village in Lithuania that the German Army marched through when he was 13. 

When they asked for volunteers, some did not step up, some refused, all who did either........... were summarily shot. 

I can't imagine he was thinking about any "oaths" when he decided to comply and be trained as an ack gunner at 13 years old considering what happened to the adults and older boys in the village.

Furthermore, at the outset of the war, nobody was preaching genocide.  They were preaching a better life for a beat-down and post WWI Germany.  It wasn't until the war machine was in full swing that the atrocities began, while the ones in power started turning the wheels of propaganda.

I refer you to your own esoteric signature which you seem to be so fond of dramatically pointing at like it is some grand and all-encompassing final authority.

Bottom line is that after the beginning of the war and the Nazi's gained more and more power, the "choice" of participating in the German military, became less and less of a choice.   Anyone who has served in a active combat zone knows that most of these boys were not thinking about any oath that they took while they were in the field.  It was more often than not, thoughts mor along the line of

Will I have something to eat today?

Will I be bombed in my sleep (if I even get a chance to get some shut-eye)?

Will they ever run out of bombs?

Is someone going to shoot me while I am taking a piss?

Did my mechanic do all the necessary PM's and/or repairs to my aircraft, today?

Will I make it to see tomorrow?

War for a soldier (airman, etc) puts daily life into very simple terms, most of which do not include time for political ruminations.

 In war there isn't a "bad" side.  You fight for your country because it is what you signed up to do which is defend your nation and it's beliefs regardless of what the circumstances were.  When in the armed forced, you do what you are told, end of story.  In the end there are only the dead and the living.

To speak in terms of "everyone knew, but did nothing" is complete and utter garbage, and quite honestly, offensive to anyone who is German or of German descent. 

EDIT:

Oops, I fed the troll, sorry 

[Angus]

I worked for an ack gunner (German) who's whole class was pulled out and made into a flak unit when he was 15. That was in 1943.
Half of the lot got killed before the war was over. My boss just had scars on the inside....buty also an eye missing.

[redwing7]

I just read Papy Boington's (excuse me if i misspelled) Ba Ba Black Sheep. After he was shot down, during one of many interrogation sessions he was asked a question and his answer was "you bastards started this war." the response he got from a high ranking Japanese solider was a question that went something like this; what if the only means you had to sustain your family was trading with five merchants at the only market around. Then one day those merchants refused to trade with you, what would you do?

Just an example of what a Japanese soldier was thinking the war was about.

He also told of Japanese civilian who were severely beaten for giving the pows food, but continued to due so.


So I guess I'm on the side of "there are no wrong sides", there are no "good wars" and history if defiantly written by the victors. I'm not in any way trying to justify or support any of the atrocities that were made, just saying there were made on all sides. Case in point; I recently watched an American WW2 vet in a documentary that was in the Philippines at the end of the war talk about what happened to some of the Japanese pows after hostilities had ceased. They would tell the pows they were going home and loaded them onto a boat. When they reached a sufficient distance from shore they were thrown overboard. Some where used as target practice while others were simply left to drown or for the sharks. He said that this happened on a number of occasions. We never learned about things like that in school. Like the man said "be a little open minded"

 

[33Vortex]

errr.. that "front in some distant land" is 30 km from my house...

Urban gangstas? 


Edit: Well said VonMessa.