Cannons vs 50s

[Pongo]

That will be telling...there is only one 20mm with a consistant long range capability in the game...the M2

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Lephturn]

The .50's seem "right" to me, and have since I started playing AH.

I nailed HT last night in the Training Arena with a quick snapshot that winged his spit.  This was no sustained burst, but it was near convergence... down he went.  If I am outside of convergence it's much less likely I do lethal damage quickly, but I can get the job done most times.  I fly the F4U-1D and have no trouble getting kills.  Sure, the 1C is a snap-shot beast, but I do almost as well in the 1D.

Hangtime, have you ever been online and watched my squad mate Vila rack up the kills in the Pony?  He lands 6-10 kill sorties with regularity, and I've seen him do 7 kill sorties where he didn't vulch even once.  If there was a true lethality problem with the .50's, I don't think he could do this.  BTW, Vila is unreal in the Pony and I think he is holding about a 7:1 K/D in it right now.  Pretty good for a bird some folks have been calling "paper mache'" with "weak guns".

I find the lethality right on for the .50's.  Great trajectory and ROF, easy to hit with compared to cannons.  However, the .50's are very dependent upon convergence settings, as I think they should be.  If I am in my convergence range, I can kill with snapshots almost as well as I can in the 1C hog.  If I'm outside of convergence, then I don't have the snapshot power, but even then a tracking shot doesn't take too much ammo to down the target.

I don't see a problem.  AH has hands-down the best gunnery modelling I've seen.  Both the cannons and the MG's seem to have their historical strengths and weaknesses to me, and that is the goal IMHO.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
 http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/

"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
 - Steve Earl

[Vermillion]

Lephturn, one major thing wrong with your arguement, you can't take one of the best pilots in the game (Vila) and use his record as a basis for the performance of an aircraft or its guns.

You would have to compare Vila's performance in a .50's Plane directly to his performance in a Mk-II 20mm aircraft, preferabely in the same airframe (ie -1C vs -1D). Then you have to run a sufficent number of sorties in each, under the same flight conditions, to be statistically significant.

Otherwise there are too many factors that come into play that make the entire arguement invalid.

Realistically, Vila could probably get more kills per sortie in a Brewster Buffalo (not the Super-Finnish model   ) than most people can get in a P-51D. Does that mean the Buffalo is a superior plane or adequate to fly day to day in the main arena for the majority of pilots??

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[214CaveJ]

 

Originally posted by Pyro:

I have been looking at some things and one change I'll be changing is to give the 20mm's more of a reduction in damage at long range.

Does this mean turning them down for "play balancing"?  I'd rather that not happen, as much as I hate being killed by cannon hawgs and watching them fly away unaffected by the weak-arsed .50s on me bombers.  And about that 1600yd kill mentioned in that article, shouldna the buffs be able to get kills out that far, assuming the gunner can keep the lead on target?  That would be very detrimental to the spit drivers who like to sit back at 1200yds and spray and pray (and there've many take me down like that) the whole while I'm showing constant hits on them from me guns.  They end up getting me wing and fly away undamaged.

And maybe we could have longer convergence settings on the buffs?  

[SC-GManMP]

IMO, the 20mm are dead on with my experience with weapons of that caliber... honestly, how may ppl here know what its like to fire one of these? or a .50 cal? Pyro and the rest of the crew have done some outstanding work with the FM and damage statistics... only one exception... the .50 cal will still pierce an inch of plate steel at 1600m, so the loss of damage at range would be a bit of a dubious effort. How many planes in the game are covered by 1" thick skin??? so you can imagine the airframe is gonna be suckin bad when hit with one of these shells.. HE, AP or any other.  These are really powerful weapons guys.  If any doubts arise... I will send Pyro the TM for the M2 .50 cal."The Ma Deuce"
So in conclusion... changing anything other than the lethality of the .50 cal(an increase)at distance would be a shame... if its not broke.. don't fix it.

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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight

[SC-GManMP]

Sorry, but i have one other comment here.
In regard to bomber guns-damage, and head-ons.  Has anyone here ever seen what happens when a hole is made on an aircraft? especially on a lift providing surface?
If not, let me walk you thru it.  Lets say you are in the tailgun position on a buff, and a P-51 is in your sights- say, 1.0k even, picture one of the 50 cal projectiles hitting the leading edge of the right wing.
What does this do? It creates a hole, approximately .75 inches wide, now... this just caused that inner section of the wing to become a balloon. (ever seen an indy car slightly lift up its front end at 210mp??? It flips right over...well imagine what happens at 400mph while chasing another aircraft.  Aircraft are covered with thin metal, this metal will tear and even peel off at that speed.  (1)one (single) yes one, .50 cal round can and most likely will tear a wing off... So, the projectile went in the wing and out the other side..(.50's don't stop at anything in an aircraft... sorry) that wing is gone.  Cockpit Armor? my ass... ain't stoppin no .50 cal. most you could hope for is to deflect an oblique shot.

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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
U.S. Army Military Police
"In God we trust, all others we investigate"
Skeleton Crew, "E" Flight

[This message has been edited by SC-GManMP (edited 02-22-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Actually it depends on how the damage model currently calculates damage of the 20mm (or any other weapon), before I would say if a change is right or wrong.

The Kinetic Energy portion of the shell, should decrease over distance in a fairly linear proportion. If this isn't happening, then yes I say an adjustment to all guns over range is needed.

However, the Chemical (explosive) Energy of the explosive portion of the shell should stay constant over distance. It doesnt' matter if it hits you right out of the barrel, or it hits you 3 miles down range. Its the same amount of explosive.

And I can tell you that in 20mm shells, the explosive is what counts.

Right out of the barrel of a Hispano MkII 20mm, the kinetic energy of the shell is about 557 kilojoules.  The explosive energy is about 636 kilojoules of energy, of which some portion is applied to an airframe depending on where it explodes.

Now the 20mm shell slows down quickly over range (in comparison to heavy MG rounds), which decreases the kinetic impact. The explosive component never changes with range, however.

So the deciding factor of damage with a 20mm is the explosive content, which does not decrease over range, as does the kinetic component.

So does the current kinetic component of damage change over distance? If not then it needs to. For all weapons actually, not just 20mm's.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[214CaveJ]

the .50s are very range dependant it seems
been a few times I've come out of my norden in time to jump to a gun and catch a bandit that made a bad pass and I saw his wing off with a 1 second burst at 200-300yds.
but, same bandit, back at 900yds, will absorb a 5-6second burst (showing hit sprites the whole time) and fly away undamaged after spraying and praying my wing off.

anyway ya slice it, they're broke and need fixin IMO

[Pongo]

Just a small addition to your excellent post Verm.
The total effectiveness of even a cannon round is greatly increased on the inside or vital parts of the airframe. So its kinetic capabilities are still somewhat important as a means of getting the round to a vital spot..
Although we are talking about fairly fragile constructs from a penetration stand point..At some point the fusing will explode the round on contact and that will be less effective.


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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 02-22-2000).]

[Hangtime]

Pyro.. may I respectfully submit that regardless of any changes made or not made in MG modeling in the recent or distant past that bullet stream density and range letahality as curently modeled is not correct.

Data; historical reports and objective observations have been made, all indicating an issue is present with the MG's.

Nobody here feels the cannon modeling is drasticly incorrect. Most all feel that the MG's are undermodeled either in stream density or range lethality; or both.

That is the issue. Please adjust he MG's. Not the cannons.

Thank you.

Hang

[Hangtime]

Lepturn..  QUOTE:

"Hangtime, have you ever been online and watched my squad mate Vila rack up the kills in the Pony? He lands 6-10 kill sorties with regularity, and I've seen him do 7 kill sorties where he didn't vulch even once. If there was a true lethality problem with the .50's, I don't think he could do this. BTW, Vila is unreal in the Pony and I think he is holding about a 7:1 K/D in it right now. Pretty good for a bird some folks have been calling "paper mache'" with "weak guns".

END QUOTE.

Humph. Double Humph. Yes. I am 'aware'. I also have had some spectacular successes with the pony. So what? And I'm sure you know that K/D ratios like this are possible with any plane in the sim. IMHO His, mine or your K/D ratio, experience or skill with any AC type is simply just not relevant to the current topic of discussion.

Next: That 'snapshot' u used on HT. Was it a snapshot? Or a defection shot?

Try this. Lay a field of UNMOVING .50 cal fire in front of a target at or near convergence. Let the target fly thru that stream of fire. Do not deflect your nose to track the target and increase the time of fire on the target. A straight 'snapshot'.

9 out of 10 times; that target will survive.

I stipulate that 9 out of 10 times the target should be destroyed. Historical data backs that assertion.

Further; re: the paper tail on the P51. It exists here in AH. That is fact. You doubt it?

Fly it for 100 sorties in contact with the enemy. 'Contact'; translated as in recieving fire from the enemy. Record your losses of airframe cause. You'll find as I have that the overwhelming majority of air combat losses with the AH P51 are due to the loss of the vert fin. This in no way is representative of the historical record for the P51. (any model)

Finally; I am not 'knocking' the sim. I do hope this does not come off as a whine. I am not attacking you; the developer or anybody else here.. just putting things back in perspective.

I have observed these conditions present with this AC and have reported the situataion as I see it. I hope it will be fixed.

Hang (not blind; nor stupid)

[Toad]

Bee,

Thanks for the link. Good reading!

In fact, should be required reading for anyone that is going to post on guns, pro or con  

[Nashwan]

Hangtime, If you were to lay an unmoving field of fire in front of an aircraft crossing your path it is unlikely the target would be destroyed.
An aircraft flying at 300mph is traveling 440ft every second. The 6 .5inch guns on a Mustang will fire about 72 rounds a second.
A typical fighter about 30ft long will therefore recieve about 5 rounds, distributed along it's length. Not all of these will hit, as some will pass either to the side or above and below the fuselage. Even if all were to hit, you'd have to be pretty lucky for 5 0.5inch bullets to bring down a fighter, certainly not 90% of the time.
Just my humble opinion, and please correct me if I've got it wrong. I usually do.



[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 02-23-2000).]

[funked]

I get 5.73 rounds.  

And yeah I think you'd have to be lucky to kill a real plane with that few bullets.

I recall that the Luftwaffe determined it took about six 20 mm hits on average to kill a fighter.  Certainly you're going to need a lot more 50-cal rounds than 20mm rounds.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
Hunh.

50 gazzillion posts I've read on gunnery..

Rate of fire on cannons.. when I fly the 1C I rarely miss a snaphot. Plane flys thru the stream.. 2-3 hits; planes dead.

Rate of fire on the six .50's.. when I fly the P51 I rarely kill with a snapshot. Plane flys thru the stream; 2-3 hits; plane is unfazed.

SHELL STREAM DENSITY ON MG'S UNDERMODELED!

I don't think the cannons are overmodeled; but gawdamn; the .50's are atrociously undermodeled in this situation. I've been told they were 'turned down' for 'play balance'. Time on target shots with the .50's seem fine; but no way they are right in a snapshot. And a P51; P38; F4U1D; and P47 are best flown to snapshot solutions.. not turning lag/lead situations.. these are B&Z planes that have had their B&Z armament gelded.

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooo o!  

Sorry fer the rant.. It just bugs me no end that all those turn on a dime cannon wagons are about and the MG B&Z planes are the ones that get the 'play balance' adjustment.


 

Try to aim before the blaze  
Could help alot... I have no problem getting lotsa kills with 6x.50cal.
So, why would you have? possibility is that you don't aim enough well or you just blaze away somewhere, when using bursts would be more accurate.