Author Topic: Cannons vs 50s  (Read 3328 times)

Offline Pyro

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2000, 10:29:00 PM »
GMan- Actually I have fired an automatic 20mm from a pedestal mount on a couple of occasions.  Not that I garnered any special insight, but it certainly is more impressive in person than in a book or on tv.  

Feel free to send me anything you think would be helpful.  In this particular case, I do have ballistic and armor penetration tables for the 1944 M2 50 Cal.  I don't have the figures handy, but it won't even come close to penetrating 1 inch at 1600 yards.  At 1000 yards I believe it will penetrate around a 1/4 inch at 0 degrees.

Hang- sometimes you'll see figures that put the M2's rate of fire down in the 500-650 RPM range.  This is correct for the standard heavy barreled M2 but not for the aircraft version.  

Here's a quick and abridged obscure history lesson for those interested in this kind of stuff...

In 1939 the Air Corps drafted a requirement for a weapon citing characteristics that the .50 was capable of meeting but with a rate of fire of at least 1000 rpm.  The M2 could only do 500-600 rpm depending on the mount.  Colt spent a couple years working on a design, but had severe problems and nothing came of it.  

Meanwhile, in 1940, the Springfield Armory lightened components of the M2 and added double driving springs in place of a single spring.  This increased the rate of fire up to 800 rpm.  It didn't meet the initial requirement, but it was still a good improvement.  The downside to this was greatly increased barrel erosion.  In early 42, the National Defense Research Committee went to work to find a way to reduce barrel erosion.  After two and a half years of research, they came up with a special alloy to line the barrel with.

Meanwhile still, the High Standard company was working on increasing the M2's rate of fire even more, but had to keep the changes to a minimum.  They made some promising innovations but could not meet test requirements.  So in 1943, the Ordnance Dept gave up on the idea of having the new design keep interchangable parts with the M2, but they still wanted the same basic mechanism to be used.  Frigidaire started working on this project and had a successful model by the autumn of 44.  This model had a lot of redesign and advancements, a couple taken from High Standard's earlier work.  Rate of fire was increased to 1200 rpm and it was ordered into production as the M3.  However, only 2400 were completed before the end of the war.  

The Ordnance Dept found that they could also incorporate some of the improvements of the M3 into the M2.  These improvements would boost the rate of fire to just over 900 rpm.  Only 8000 were produced- a quarter of the initial order, due to the M3 production progressing quickly.

BTW, I have a Frigidaire refrigerator and both the icemaker and water dispenser could really use a faster rate as well.



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funked

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2000, 02:42:00 AM »
Pyro said:
"BTW, I have a Frigidaire refrigerator and both the icemaker and water dispenser could really use a faster rate as well."

ROFL!

Seriously, I bet the refrigerator engineers had a bunch of fun tinkering with the guns!

SC-GManMP

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2000, 02:47:00 PM »
Hey Pyro, thanks for your remarks.  I have a photo to post for you of a somali pickup which i personally(told you i had hands on experience) chewed to living hell, range was in the vicinty of 1400m and penetrated both sides of the engine block = 4cyl inline. Model was M2/1980, with linked ap/tracer at ratio of 1 to 5.  I will send ya this pic when i scan it... some of you might find it as of interest as well.  I haven't said much about it... cuz it wasn't very fun.  Picture to come.  Love my Ma Deuce.

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Offline Dingy

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2000, 03:22:00 PM »
Funny, found this on Combatsim
 http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-1.htm

-Ding

Offline juzz

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2000, 04:21:00 PM »
Did those AP happen to have a DU core by any chance...?

SC-GManMP

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2000, 05:10:00 PM »
No Juzz. D.U. isn't used in .50 cal ammo.
Not that i've seen anyway... some super duper trooper somewhere may have some, but to the best of my knowledge.. .50 cal D.U. is not in the U.S. inventory.

All an AP round is: copper jacketed(so it doesnt score the barrel) steel penetrator.
As we all know.. steel holds its form better than lead...

Offline SnakeEyes

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2000, 09:07:00 PM »
So Funked... you ever hit the Air Zoo in K'zoo?

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SC-GManMP

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2000, 10:26:00 PM »
I have snake-eyes, i'm from south haven, went 6 years in a row... way back.

High On Kalamazoooooooooooooooooooooo oo

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Offline SnakeEyes

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2000, 10:46:00 PM »
Cool biz... I was there back in '91 (I think it was 91) when they had the first appearance of the Mig29 in the continental US.

Graduated from K' Colludge in '92.

Nice town... nice airplanes.  Dumbshit me never visited the airzoo while in college.  Didn't really realize how cool it was or know about their Sunday flights.

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Offline Minotaur

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2000, 01:25:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by juzz:
Did those AP happen to have a DU core by any chance...?

I have an interesting, but dumb, idea.  For my idea to work you would have to use Non-Depleted Uranium.  I believe that "Highly Enriched Uranium-235" might be suitable.

Picture two planes going HO, and the bullets shot from each plane colliding in mid air.  Imagine the surprize, when that "WAD" of Uranium reaches a critical mass.  

After destoying every plane in the entire arena, someones K/D ratio might go up.  Depends on how the "SYSTEM" scores it though.  

Mino

funked

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2000, 08:40:00 AM »
What's this?  Air Zoo?  Pls elaborate.

Offline Toad

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2000, 11:31:00 AM »
Funk,

It's a museum that actually flies their planes in Kalamazoo.

Like most warbird outfits, it has some really, really fine people in it. Like most warbird outfits it also has a very few guys that think they are too special to talk to mere mortals.  

Overall, it's a real class act with some good stuff.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

SC-GManMP

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2000, 08:45:00 PM »
The Kalamazoo Air Zoo, hosts an airshow every year, called "High on Kalamazoo". My hometown is about 30 min away.. went every year until i went active duty military.  I especially like thier flight simulators... awesome, full real cockpits of reconstructed surplus aircraft... costs a pretty penny, but very much worth it.

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Garrett "SC-GManMP" Pella
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funked

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2000, 09:11:00 PM »
Where's Kalamazoo?

Offline SnakeEyes

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Cannons vs 50s
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2000, 11:00:00 PM »
Ok Funked, you funkin' with us, right?  

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