Tips on flying the 190A5 needed........

[RAM]

ok, last try.

 

Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
RAM, it seems you forgot your pills for the entire week.

Frankly what is interesting is your fixation about insulting me. But letting that aside:



1 - You test 190A8 with more weapons, ammo load and fuel than A5, so, you make the heavier A8 even heavier.

No. I test the A5 with the same fuel configuration and with 2 cannons less. I have repeated the tests with 4 cannons, and the loss of zooming is between 100-200 feet. Didnt post the results as my tests arent valid   .

If I test the plane with 50%vs50% you can't complain (as you did) that the A8 had an extra fuel tank that adds weight. So--what?. A8 also had more armor and heavier cowl MGs, is part of the design and inherent to it. If the plane is heavier, is heavier, you can't handicap one of the planes because its lighter than the other.

2 - If you state that acceleration is better in A5, then, deceleration is greater in A8. Cant understand why you state that A5 acelerates better but decelerates quicker.

(deep sigh). Again, I made clear this was an ASSUMPTION, and maybe I didnt make it all the clear it was needed.

Fw190A8 has 2000hp aprox at SL. Fw190A5 has 1800hp aprox.

Ok, if I am travelling at 0k, 400mph in A5 and A8 I expect the A5 to decelerate faster. Why? because its top speed its lower (meaning that the power output of the engine can't push its way at so much speed.)

The A8 I expect it to decelerate slower, why? because it has a higher top speed and the more engine power can keep the plane faster for a longer time.

Again this can be wrong, I am talking on ASSUMPTIONS (and I stated this clearly in my previous post). If I am wrong, well so be it. Anyway the decelleration was really slow in both planes when I begun the pull-up.


3 - If you think A5 2x20 is better plane than A5 4x20, then I suppose that the use of your logic should imply the same for A8.

Mandoble esto ya te lo digo en castellano. Durante todo el puto thread he estado insistiendo sobre los performances del Fw190A5 CON DOS CAÑONES!. De tal forma q el testeo q he hecho lo he hecho con dos cañones, no con cuatro. Si no lo entiendes alla tu.


 La verdad uno se harta de tus puyas-que las haces a proposito para desviar atencion- y pierde bastante la moral como para intentarte contestar sin meterte una buena burrada en respuesta. Pq macho, si no estas de acuerdo conmigo me parece fenomenal, pero otra de tus "bromitas de las pastillas" y de la contestacion q recibes me banean de los forums (cosa q por otra  parte me la bufa rato y medio).

Si quieres dialogar, cojopendo. Las cosas con respeto y sin faltar q yo en mi jodida vida me he metido contigo, y bastante es tener q aguantar ciertos elementos por aqui como para q encima tenga q aguantar esto de un español. Sabes q no me callo y a la proxima te la suelto.


The rest of his post are simple personal attacks not worth of mention nor answer. MANDOBLE; take a 100% loaded 4 cannon Fw190A5 (dont forget to take a 500Kg bomb, so it compensates for the extra fuel) and make it zoom. then compare it with a 25% fuel 2 cannon A8. That would be fair huh?

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-25-2001).]

[MANDOBLE]

RAM, no tomes las bromas de las pastillas como ningun instulto, tomalas justo como bromas, que es lo que son.

[eddiek]

(punt)  


Pyro, HT, any HTC staff, please lock this post.  Let them argue and have a pissing contest in someone else's thread please?  

[RAM]

eddiek, regardless of what you think, in this thread there are really good advices on how to fly a 190.

MANDOBLE, una cosa es una broma y otra cosa es repetir lo mismo en un post claramente sarcastico e hiriente. Lo tomare como q lo has medido mal, pero te digo de verdad, si yo no te he faltado jamas, no lo hagas conmigo.

Now back on topic and to the acceleration/deceleration.

In a plane running straight, two forces decide the top speed of it. Thrust and drag.

Thrust is invariant as long as the engine keeps running at the same hp output. Not so the Drag, that increases a lot with the speed.

In phisics, dynamic systems, you learn that the total forces that act over an object, added or substracted (depending on the direction and sense of the force), are equal to MassXacceleration. the equation would be:

Ff-Fc=Mxa

Ff=forces in the same direction and sense of the the movement

Fc=Forces in the same direction, but opposite sense of that of the movement.

M=Mass of the object

a=Acceleration.

So a=(Ff-Fc)/M

So far its clear, right?.

Ok, lets see. A8 has 10% more power than A5.


The thrust force of A8, then ,is higher than A5's.

 So lets say that the Ff for A8 is 1.1 times the Ff for A5, right?.

 Lets keep the drag equal (it will be a bit higher for the A8, but for the sake of simplicity -and because I dont have enough info to give it a good modifier,lets keep it equal)

Mass of A5 is aproximately 10% less than A8.

So mass for A5 is 0.9 times the M of A8.

Now we must put this into the equation of the acceleration.

Equation for Fw190A5:

Ff-Fc=0.9Mxa; a=(Ff-Fc)/0.9M ; 1.111(Ff-Fc)/M=a

This is the acceleration for A5, at highest output at SL.

Equation for Fw190A8:

1.1Ff-Fc=Mxa

a=1.1(Ff-Fc)/M

This is the acceleration for A8 at highest output at SL.

--------------------------------

Ok we know that the top speed of a plane happens when a=0. That will happen when Ff-Fc=0, so when Ff=Fc

If the Drag is bigger than the Thrust, the plane deccelerates until the point that the forces are equal and the acceleration 0.

At 400mph, deccelerating for 375mph, the drag of both planes is bigger than the trust. so far its clear.

so

a=1.1(Ff-Fc)/M (acceleration of A8)

and

a=1.11(Ff-Fc)/M (Acceleration of A5)

will give us wich plane will decelerate faster. Fc is equal on both planes, Ff too (we have put a modifier to A8 for taking account of its bigger output before), and M too (we have put a modifier to A5 for taking accounf of its lighter airframe before).

a its going to be negative (the plane is deccelerating). So lets say that the mass is X, the drag is Y and the thrust is Z. (thrust < drag). The numbers don't matter, wichever they are, the formula will give us always one equation bigger than the other. And we will call the substraction X-Y= -K (negative because Y>X)

so

Fw190A5:

a=1.111(X-Y)/Z; a=-1.111K/Z

Fw190A8

a=1.1(X-Y)/Z; a=-1.1K/Z

as you see the decceleration is bigger in the A5.

Inertia plays a big role here, as well as the fact that the bigger thrust force overcomes the drag better in A8 than in A5.

I know this is a great simplification of the dynamics acting over the plane, and that the drag changes a lot with the speed, but if we look the system for  a given moment and same speed for both planes, its clear that the A5 will deccelerate faster than A8.

The only black point I find here is that the drag force for the A8 will be slightly higher than that for A5. I dont think it will be that much of change(After all it's only the cowl mountings that creates a bit more drag). But if A5 doesnt deccelerate faster, then they will be roughly equal.



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-25-2001).]

[eddiek]

RAM, while the first two or three people gave me tips, you started your routine piracy by nitpicking StSanta's post.....and it snowballed from there into which plane was better........not what I wanted.
I wanted tips on the A5, did not once ask for A5 vs A8 comparison.
We have seen these same arguments before, and while they may be "correct", I will restate that I wanted tips on being successful in the A5, not the A8.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by eddiek:
RAM, while the first two or three people gave me tips, you started your routine piracy by nitpicking StSanta's post.....and it snowballed from there into which plane was better........not what I wanted.
I wanted tips on the A5, did not once ask for A5 vs A8 comparison.
We have seen these same arguments before, and while they may be "correct", I will restate that I wanted tips on being successful in the A5, not the A8.

StSanta and me have a particular private joke about who is flying the sissy plane. Maybe you did took that as a nitpick, it wasnt. It is simply that he flies A5 different than me, and that is mostly because he flies A8 more than A5.

If you are good at BnZing and not so good on Close fight ACMs, fly it as Stsanta says.

if you are good at ACMs, fly it as I say  

Anyway I repeat, you have really good tips here to read and follow.

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by RAM:

Equation for Fw190A8:
1.1Ff-Fc=Mxa
a=1.1(Ff-Fc)/M

Sorry, but incorrect RAM.
a(A8) = (1.1Ff - Fc)/M not 1.1(Ff - Fc)/M
For A5: a(A5) = 1.111(Ff - Fc)/M

That means that you are wrong stating that A5 accelerates better than A8. Assuming max power of A5 is 1700hp, A5 accelerates better only when Fc derived from drag is equivalent to 155hp or lower. So, basically, A8 accelerates better than A5 on the deck, and due this, A8 decelerates slower as Fc increases with the speed.

And now a tip for eddiek. Try using 4x20 in the A5, the two external 2MGFF with 225 conv and the two internal Mg120 with 250 conv. I've found this conf quite effective.

[eddiek]

Thanks, MANDOBLE!
Will give the A5 another whirl today when I log in.........

[RAM]

double post

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-26-2001).]

[RAM]

Mandoble, yes u are right regarding the equation error...hehe was just out from an exam and believe that I got a mental meltdown
anyway I must take a look at those equations again, will do later (exam this afternoon)

Eddiek,well...see, I fly 190A5 as main ride and never load MGFF. Do as you wish and try all configurations. But I dont know any other dedicated A5 driver in AH, at least not that I know of.

And I keep on saying that MGFFs are worthless. You asked for tips from people used to fly this kite, and is my ride of choice.

now do as you want   is your fun, not mine  

[StSanta]

Mandoble, try adressing the other pointd as well: will adress yours:

StSanta, AFAIK both planes use the very same engine.
Aye, I should have said "engine to weight". Sometimes, I slip.

Down low in particular is where the A8 boost system makes it faster than A5.

That's down in the weeds, and it's only faster. It does not climb as well even down low.

I said:
...denying the A8 a shot by going vertical and using better climb rate, acceleration and
maneuverability.

Have you tested zoom climbs in both planes?

I am not talking about zoom climbs. I am talking about a co alt co e fight. The 190A5, due to better climb rate, can do a knife edge fight, can go over the top on loops faster and can to a larger extent recover lost e. This will mean, if pilots are average, that the A5 will find itself in an offensive situation. I've tried it.

As a matter of fact, A8 or P47 can also deny the A5 a shot by lo level pure top speed.

The A8 can run, but not engage offensively. If the A8 chooses to run, the A5 can choose to climb. At which case the A5 will be on the offensive and the A8 on the defensive.

And running is, as far as I know, a defensive move  .

It is something like comparing Typhoon with Spit IX. Spit climbs better, turns better, accelerates better, but Typh      dives better and is faster on the deck (not comparing here zoom climbs due completety different drag factors).

Well, there's not enough difference. The A5 does everything the A8 does, except down in the weed speed. Small difference in ammo load and ROF doesn't compensate.

If I was to go 1 on 1, I'd always take the better e fighter.

In MA, it's different.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[MANDOBLE]

That's down in the weeds, and it's only faster. It does not climb as well even down low.
Still cant understand that more power = less climb rate thing.

I am not talking about zoom climbs. I am talking about a co alt co e fight.
Then you are not talking about our arena.

The A8 can run, but not engage offensively. If the A8 chooses to run, the A5 can choose to climb. At which case the A5 will be on the offensive and the A8 on the defensive.

And running is, as far as I know, a defensive move   .

Ok, I'll run, I'll deack your entire base, destroy your radar, kill two slow climbing nikis, and then you'll kill me: congratulations, great work.

Well, there's not enough difference. The A5 does everything the A8 does, except down in the weed speed. Small difference in ammo load and ROF doesn't compensate.
Small differendes in ammo load, ROF and muzzle velocity???? Too much beers for you today...   ... St, please, sleep 8 hours and then come back and read what you've writen  


If I was to go 1 on 1, I'd always take the better e fighter.
Then, a secret tip for you, fly the Nikki.
Well, this is MA, I need to cover friendlies,  scort buffs for long distances, deack bases, kill silly ufo-spits or ufo-hogs all the day, etc, etc. A5 is absolutely inferior to A8 in any situation except coalt, co E 1 vs 1 duel.

IMO, I insist, IMO, A8 is waaaaaaaaaay better combat aircraft than A5 for this arena or any hipothetical 1.5 - 2.5 world war.

A5 is clearly better E fighter, ok, as Zeke is.

[StSanta]

Still cant understand that more power = less climb rate thing. I am saying that at no altitudes does the A8 outclimb the A5. It got more weed speed for some reason but above 1k or so it ain't happening.

Then you are not talking about our arena.

We're comparing two planes. We're taking ahypthetical engagement, where the conditions for both planes are equal. That doesn't happen in the MA, and it's pretty obvious where it does.

Ok, I'll run, I'll deack your entire base, destroy your radar, kill two slow climbing nikis, and then you'll kill me: congratulations, great work.{/b]
Sheesh, so defensive. And no, you won't. The moment you start wasting e - the A5 will be all over you. You have one chance, if the A5 follows - run home to momma or fight from a disdvantage. Your choice. Doesn't change my point.

Small differendes in ammo load, ROF and muzzle velocity???? Too much beers for you today... ... St, please, sleep 8 hours and then come back and read what you've writen

What the hell is wrong with you Mandoble? I discuss civilly, and you resort to name calling. Do you have some kind of a problem here?

Look at ammo load for 190A8 vs 190A5. There's a difference. And from what I've heard, the A5 due to some odd thing has a slightly lower ROF on the outer guns. On this I might be wrong. On ammo I am not. So chill out, man. I ain't attacking your person; you're attaking mine.


Then, a secret tip for you, fly the Nikki.

The N1K is not the best e fighter around - once again, a 109G10 or a YAK can dictate the fight by using its superior climb rate. perhaps we use widely different definitions of e fighting - I am not referring to "holds e well in turns and can loop fast". How do *you* define e fighting? And try to explain it, please, without resorting to personal attacks.

Well, this is MA, I riendlies, escort buffs for long distances, deack bases, kill silly ufo-spits or ufo-hogs all the day, etc, etc. A5 is absolutely inferior to A8 in any situation except coalt, co E 1 vs 1 duel.

I disagree. The A5 can do just about everything the A8 can. With 4*20, it also has a very powerful punch. While it lacks some of the speed of the A8 on the deck, it can fight much differently, can be flown more aggressively and can even turn a little bit. It's overall a good deal more maneuverable.

IMO, I insist, IMO, A8 is waaaaaaaaaay better combat aircraft than A5 for this arena or any hipothetical 1.5 - 2.5 world war.{/b]

Way better is making too much out of it. I think it's more fun. The differences are so small however; the A8 has an advantage one area, the A5 an advantage another. Whether you consider one better than the other depends on your style of flying.

A5 is clearly better E fighter, ok, as Zeke is.

You didn't address my comments on why it is, so I will assume you agree with them.

And no need for personal attacks, dude. I try a civil debate and do not call you a drug using burned out cocaine addict that needs rehab for 8 month before he can say something coherent. I expect the same courtesy extended towards myself, or this discussion is over.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[J_A_B]

I agree with RAM's initial assesment:

The 190A-5 is better for close-in fighting, while the A8 is better suited for BnZ.

Although the 190A8 can fight in close combat reasonably well, I can't imagine it being any better than the A5 in this regard.  The 190A8 is all about brute firepower, and the 30mm option is incredible.  I was shocked at how quickly those 30mm's will shred a plane when I tried it for a day (think it was version 1.01 or -02) I don't think either plane is especially well-suited to E-fighting, although the A5 is the better E-fighter of the two.

Personally, I think the 190A8 is a better plane for the arena generally, although the 190A5 might be more fun to fly.  The 190A5 is a good option for somebody who wants to fly a FW, but doesn't want to be automatically dead in close combat.  

From my perspective (I fly a P-51D 99% of the time, when I fly at all, which hasn't been since early 1.04), the 190A5 is a more difficult plane to deal with in a dogfight.  However, I am more afraid of a high A8 than a high A5.  

Either way, both are worthy opponents.

J_A_B

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
Still cant understand that more power = less climb rate thing. I am saying that at no altitudes does the A8 outclimb the A5. It got more weed speed for some reason but above 1k or so it ain't happening.

Santa, Brute power in a (bassically) identical airframe means bigger top speed.

Better powerloading means better acceleration and climbrate.

The reason why A8 is faster low on the deck is that it has more power output and so it can overcome the drag better than A5.

The reason why A5 is better accelerator and climber is because it is way lighter, so, even when it has 160hp less on the deck, it still has a better powerloading.