I'd like to start a reasonable discussion... if possible.

[AKKuya]

From the posts made by the FSO Team overall, they choose to make the events playable than historically accurate.  That's probably the best direction to take.  In time, HTC will unleash more aircraft down the road.  With each new aircraft will give more options to the design teams.

The PTO setups are difficult to make playable with the limited plane sets available. The ETO setups are easier to design.  Maybe incorporate the Allied bombing into the PTO setups. 

B-25's and B-26's are good for low level attacking with no formations.  Having the Allies being split between fighters and bombers would help the Axis defend better.  On the same token, Ki-67's are excellent for level bombing with formations against CV groups carrying torpedoes.

Carrier vs carrier right now will be lopsided leaning towards Allied with the advantage.  The present FSO is the exception with the way the frames are set up.

Just my two cents.

[Stoney]

I am wondering if there is some discussion to be made about what should be prioritised, historical accuracy or playability.  Is this a false dilemma?  Is there another way?

I personally don't think there is an epic clash between these two characteristics.  History in FSO, IMO, provides us the ability to build context, to perhaps teach a little history each week, and to flavor, but not dominate, the setup architecture.  Playability is the caveat, and ultimately, if historical flavor prevents player fun, then the history is too dominant, and needs to be reined in.  After all, the main goal of every FSO is to be fun.

The issue with respect to PTO setups is this:  can you create a playable setup that has a historical context?  Does the nature of the Japanese aircraft create the potential for playable setups?  Certainly later in the war, the IJA/IJN planes offer a better match-up.  Currently, the only means I see with which to balance the early IJ planeset is through numbers.  Sometimes numbers may not be enough to make a setup playable, at least at the micro level.  You can use scoring and objectives to create balance and playability at the macro level, but it doesn't mean the individual pilots will have fun, even if their side "wins".  Its an issue that I've struggled with for a while now. 

[DMBEAR]

I know the best times in FSO are what keeps me coming back.

I accept that I may get an assignment that is virtually impossible, which is actually historically accurate.     

I know it sucks when you and your squad go down in flames 2 minutes after making contact after flying around for 45-60 minutes.  Compound that with the fact that they are in superior rides that may not be historically accurate and it is even more frustrating.  However, when the stars align and your 190A-5 is diving from 22k in from the high 9o'clock onto 8 sets of B24's with a heavy escort of 38s and Juggs you know why FSO makes my joystick wiggle.

Sometimes getting a crap assignment is cool too just for the challenge.

I loves me some FSO.

[Krusty]

However, when the stars align and your 190A-5 is diving from 22k in from the high 9o'clock onto 8 sets of B24's with a heavy escort of 38s and Juggs ...

More like, 190A8 wobbling around well above it's FTH trying to chase 38K P-38s and P-47s, that used air starts to climb super high, while 109K-4s stall out at 30K, while the bombers fly by faster than you at 32K, bomb their target with impunity, and make it home. Meanwhile, the allied fighters roam around death-match style vulching and picking and gang banging anything they can find, even though their mission was close escort of the invulnerable bombers, they ignore all orders and go chasing any axis plane to the ends of the map even though it's clear it wants to disengage, it's clear it's out of the fight, they follow it until the frame ends, then collide with it trying to vulch it as it touches down.

That's a more representative view of the FSOs for the past 6-10 months.

[Kermit de frog]

More like, 190A8 wobbling around well above it's FTH trying to chase 38K P-38s and P-47s, that used air starts to climb super high, while 109K-4s stall out at 30K, while the bombers fly by faster than you at 32K, bomb their target with impunity, and make it home. Meanwhile, the allied fighters roam around death-match style vulching and picking and gang banging anything they can find, even though their mission was close escort of the invulnerable bombers, they ignore all orders and go chasing any axis plane to the ends of the map even though it's clear it wants to disengage, it's clear it's out of the fight, they follow it until the frame ends, then collide with it trying to vulch it as it touches down.

That's a more representative view of the FSOs for the past 6-10 months.

Learn to communicate better within your squad, and more importantly, to other squadrons on command text ch 150.
Simply report any changes in all enemy activity.

[Nefarious]

Learn to communicate better within your squad, and more importantly, to other squadrons on command text ch 150.
Simply report any changes in all enemy activity.

No. I want to complain some more.   

[Krusty]

USMC has proven their capabilities in the FSO more times than I can count. I don't need to justify my qualifications while participating in the FSO, to Kermit or Nef.

Blaming me is like the AvA folks blaming anybody that says something unfavorable: Doesn't mean you're solving the problem.

[DMBEAR]

More like, 190A8 wobbling around well above it's FTH trying to chase 38K P-38s and P-47s, that used air starts to climb super high, while 109K-4s stall out at 30K, while the bombers fly by faster than you at 32K, bomb their target with impunity, and make it home. Meanwhile, the allied fighters roam around death-match style vulching and picking and gang banging anything they can find, even though their mission was close escort of the invulnerable bombers, they ignore all orders and go chasing any axis plane to the ends of the map even though it's clear it wants to disengage, it's clear it's out of the fight, they follow it until the frame ends, then collide with it trying to vulch it as it touches down.

That's a more representative view of the FSOs for the past 6-10 months.

Hard to have a reasonable discussion when somebody responds to my $.02 only to tell me my experience is different than it actually was and that his is a more representative view of the FSOs for the past 6-10 months.

Krusty, I can't tell everyone what their experiences were, and obviously you can't either.  I don't doubt you are upset with the current FSO and that is why you stated the following...

Once upon a time, long ago, the FSO held an interesting world (virtual, that is) for me. In this world you might get a kill, you might get killed, and you might just as well survive a frame with no kills, never firing a shot, but being mixed up in the thick of it all the while.


The past many many months it has been nothing but 1-way trips. You can't finish the job, you can't make it back safely, there's almost never any real gameplay balance (later war setups are just as bad as early ones!). The entire thing stinks like a fish cannery.

I've stopped showing up at FSOs except on very special occassions (if I really want to fly "plane X") because it's going down the tubes, and has been steadily.

It's nothing but a deathmatch fragfest, and I stopped playing first person shooters online because that gets boring after you pass the age of 12. Why would I want to fly AH setups that wind up that way?

Answer is: I wouldn't.

So I don't.

That's my 1-man movement.

I guess you are content not to play the FSO "deathmatch fragfest".   I guess you would like things to change so you can come back and enjoy it.  However, I doubt coming in here and dismissing others experiences as rare, or denying that other people are having a good time finding fights that just don't exist in the Ma's will help you out.

Enjoy your 1-man movement, but its always more fun w/ a chick.

[Krusty]

I'm not dismissing others' experiences. I simply think they were under-stated and "too kind" to paint a full picture.

How about the last FSO with heavy jabo P4-7s flying in a gaggle of 30-50 planes at well over 35K, an altitude even stripped down 109s/190s couldn't dream of getting to?

How about the current FSO, with D3As and B5Ns vs F6Fs?

How about the one a few months back where A20Gs were tasked to hit a target and instead were dogfighting en masse, entire squads of 8+ A-20Gs dogfighting 1-2 190As on the deck over the 190A's own town ack (literally 100 feet above the buildings) and winning? Or how about me and my squad flying 200 miles off course just to try and find some field NOT being vulched by lone-wulf allies in P-51Ds or P-47Ds or P-38J/Ls, and then just as we attempt to land in come 2 more P-51s at 500mph from 15k to the deck to vulch us on final? All of these were the same FSO setup.

These, and indeed every, FSOs paint the picture much more clearly than the comment I replied to, and are a regular (constant) occurance. That's not merely perspective. That's just how bad the FSO is these days.

As for me, I said "to hell with this" and don't expect it to change any. Can you dismiss my claims? I've said nothing that is untrue, and probably most if it I have on archived film footage somewhere.

[Kermit de frog]

I'm not dismissing others' experiences. I simply think they were under-stated and "too kind" to paint a full picture.

How about the last FSO with heavy jabo P4-7s flying in a gaggle of 30-50 planes at well over 35K, an altitude even stripped down 109s/190s couldn't dream of getting to?

How about the current FSO, with D3As and B5Ns vs F6Fs?

How about the one a few months back where A20Gs were tasked to hit a target and instead were dogfighting en masse, entire squads of 8+ A-20Gs dogfighting 1-2 190As on the deck over the 190A's own town ack (literally 100 feet above the buildings) and winning? Or how about me and my squad flying 200 miles off course just to try and find some field NOT being vulched by lone-wulf allies in P-51Ds or P-47Ds or P-38J/Ls, and then just as we attempt to land in come 2 more P-51s at 500mph from 15k to the deck to vulch us on final? All of these were the same FSO setup.

These, and indeed every, FSOs paint the picture much more clearly than the comment I replied to, and are a regular (constant) occurance. That's not merely perspective. That's just how bad the FSO is these days.

As for me, I said "to hell with this" and don't expect it to change any. Can you dismiss my claims? I've said nothing that is untrue, and probably most if it I have on archived film footage somewhere.

How does this relate to Dantoo's agenda?

[Krusty]

I'd like to add a comment to those that may or may not share my opinion on the matter.

This thread is about gameplay balance in the FSOs, vs lacking planesets, and finding something that "works" between the two extremes.

My comment above is 100% directly related to this topic, as I feel the FSOs setups are lopsided, uncivilized gang bangs most of the time. This is the gameplay part of the issue. I don't think there is much anymore.

There was a time when spit5s ran across 190A5s, had a fight, and parted company. Now the 190s break off, chase the spits outside icon range for 50 mi and vulch them as they try to land. Quite a bit of difference, as far as gameplay balance is concerned.

To point this topic back to the "answer" to this problem, I don't know if any amount of rules ro changes can revert this behavior. You can't create a rule if you can't enforce it, and most rule suggestions just can't be enforced. It's simply the result of too many MA dweebs influencing the FSO over the years. The attitudes have totally about-faced and the end result is it's no longer fun on Friday nights for me.

I have suggested a couple of ideas before, on similar topics, but they wouldn't work (rotating squads in and out to reduce the player count, or removing all bomber formations and putting a single pilot in a single plane, adjusting side counts so ratios are the same) but the end result is that no idea that has been suggested will change anything so far.

If my previous post sounds bleak, it is merely reflecting my hope for a better FSO at the moment.

[DMBEAR]

I'm not dismissing others' experiences. I simply think they were under-stated and "too kind" to paint a full picture.

How about the last FSO with heavy jabo P4-7s flying in a gaggle of 30-50 planes at well over 35K, an altitude even stripped down 109s/190s couldn't dream of getting to?

How about the current FSO, with D3As and B5Ns vs F6Fs?

How about the one a few months back where A20Gs were tasked to hit a target and instead were dogfighting en masse, entire squads of 8+ A-20Gs dogfighting 1-2 190As on the deck over the 190A's own town ack (literally 100 feet above the buildings) and winning? Or how about me and my squad flying 200 miles off course just to try and find some field NOT being vulched by lone-wulf allies in P-51Ds or P-47Ds or P-38J/Ls, and then just as we attempt to land in come 2 more P-51s at 500mph from 15k to the deck to vulch us on final? All of these were the same FSO setup.

These, and indeed every, FSOs paint the picture much more clearly than the comment I replied to, and are a regular (constant) occurance. That's not merely perspective. That's just how bad the FSO is these days.

As for me, I said "to hell with this" and don't expect it to change any. Can you dismiss my claims? I've said nothing that is untrue, and probably most if it I have on archived film footage somewhere.

I had far different experiences in the frames you've given examples of.  I found the 190A-5 to be great to fly, but I do remember a whine thread about it in which I said our squad would be more than willing to take it up if others didnt want it.  I don't dismiss your claims or doubt they are true.  I do have a problem with your comment that your experiences "paint the picture much more clearly than the comment you replied to,and are a regular (constant) occurence. not merely perspective" 

I think the clearer picture of what is happening comes from people posting their experiences.
Telling others your experience is a clearer example as you did in the above post, or flat out dismissing it as you did w/ my first comment in this thread is how you get narrower view of something.

How does this relate to Dantoo's agenda?

I guess I didnt like my original post getting dismissed.  I thought it related how I feel the CMs are trying to create both historical accuracy and playability.  Also I wanted to point out that I didnt expect every frame to go smoothly, but loved it when it did, and that was part of the fun for me.

[DrDea]

 Its his basic pattern.Every FSO Krusty is in where he gets shot down or no kills sux.Just read some in here and you will see the light.   Now back to the topic on hand.   The plane sets limit what can be represented. This weeks was a "Marianas turkey shoot" just like the historical model. Will the Japs do as well when the Allied force attacks their CV's next week? I would think they will  do better than they did this last one. Its easier to defend in my book than to attack. Send out scouts and intercept.
 Hell I like the FSO fine.Sometimes I get the bad end of the stick but so what. Everyone does.

[fudgums]

There was a time when there was no vulching in fso and I sort of agree with krusty

[CHAPPY]