Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon

[Vermillion]

Fishu, earlier in the thread I never said one word about the hispano's.

You want to squeak about the hispano's, squeak directly to Pyro. The comparitive strength of the hispano versus the MG151, in regards to aircraft lethality,  has long been an item of debate on the board with very strong proof that it is correct in AH in comparison to hard scientific data. However you are probably correct on its ability in regards to tank killing. But talk to Pyro about that.

I simply said that the mine shells looked like they were included in the MG151/20 loadout, and Grunherz had to jump in and tell me I was wrong, again without any proof or data or ANYTHING. When many of the people here have shown otherwise.  His basis is one purely of speculation and how he thinks it should be, not on any facts, figures, or data.

So I got pissed off and posted in anger.  I was wrong, in how I approached my reply, but considering the name calling and other insults I have taken from Grunherz in the past, I don't feel bad about how I responded.

I edited my post to keep down the rhetoric on the board, and I ask you too do the same. If not, I really don't care anymore.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-13-2001).]

[Tony Williams]

A few more comments:

30mm MMK 108 useless against armour - used M-Geschoss which had NO AP performance.

20mm Hispano HE around 11-12g HE content.  20mm MG 151 M-Geschoss around 18-20g HE.  Hispano muzzle energy = 50,000 kj, MG151 ME = 29,000 kj.

IJN Type 99-2 often underrated: 128g at 750 m/sec = 36,000 kj.

ShVAK 97g at 860 m/s = 36,000 kj.

Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/

[brady]

juzz, do a search I have posted a Bunch of data on Japanese 20mm canons, the Japanese used almost all HEI and those rounds were almost the same size as the 20mm hispanos although with more HEI filling, as a result of this and the fact that the Japanese used almost all HEI rounds in their ammo load out's, the type 99 hits very hard as it should, it is however harder to hit with than the Hispanos do to the poorer MV of the type 99, but at 400 yards what does it matter..


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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-13-2001).]

[funked]

Dinger and Hooligan did quantitative lethality tests, and they showed that lethality of the Hispano (per round) is only 14% higher than MG 151/20.  

If you consider that the Hispano has 70% greater kinetic energy, the advantage is too small.  So something more than kinetic energy is giving the Mauser a great boost.  

What is this something?  Clearly it is the HE charge.  MG 151/20 in AH is getting far more power from HE than the Hispano, as it should.

(And I still don't think 20 mm cannons should be exploding Panzer IV.)

{And I also think we should have AP and HE rounds modeled seperately, with the user able to select from the various historically valid loadouts, including mixed loadouts.)

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-13-2001).]

[Fishu]

<off topic>
Pst. Brady, are those 350kb signature images *really* necessary?
</off topic>

[Nath-BDP]

brady, change it to a jpeg... bmp is not needed, its just larger.

[brady]

 Working on it gents I want to make it smaller...ty for your pertinence...

 Brady

[funked]

Brady try this:  http://www.raf303.org/funked/brady234.jpg

 

[Fishu]

<off topic>
It's just that my ADSL was down for over 4 hours and I was using a modem for that while..  took some eternity to load threads with a big signature image
remembered again why I didnt like them

it looks good.. but, im here to read & post on the board, not look a gallery though.
</off topic>

[brady]

 Ty very much now i need to make it smaller like 50%, I cant seam to shrink it..

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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-13-2001).]

[Fishu]

 

like this, brady?

[Tony Williams]

Brady, the Japanese did have AP loadings (although I don't know what the typical mix would be).

The Ho-5 had an odd mix of loadings.  The AP weighed around 115-120g, but the HEI only 80g - and it wasn't an M-Geschoss.

Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/  

[brady]

Fishu, TY very much I will redo my signature asap  

Mr.Williams, yes i am aware of the AP ammo but it was the tracer that was AP/tracer,and do to the japanese docterian behind their ammo usage it stands to reason that a larger percentage of the chain would of been HEI shells. this is in reference to the type 99's

 As far as the Ho-5 ,which has yet to added to the game, is concerned :

   

 Just what is a M-Geschoss, I mean by definition? that is not what I am looking at type wise in that cross section?



[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-14-2001).]

[brady]

 Better?

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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-14-2001).]

[Tony Williams]

The Ho-5 HE projectiles had a better charge/weight ratio than most, but I have some sectioned M-Geschoss in my collection and the projectile body thickness is half or less of that shown above.

The technical difference is that in an M-Geschoss the projectile is formed by drawing (forcibly pressing to shape in several stages in the same way as cartridge cases) rather than drilling out a solid projectile.  This enables the projectile body to be much thinner and lighter.  I'll post a pic if you like.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm