Author Topic: Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon  (Read 2825 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon
« Reply #60 on: March 14, 2001, 09:09:00 AM »
Verm ur right ive been an bellybutton to you and I apologize for that. And you are also correct in that I dont often look at things with enough depth. Can you tell me what kind of tests were done on 151 vs Hispano to show what kind of ammo is being used? Was it firing at planes?  At tanks? Or buildings? were they done in the MA, TA, or offline? Which version of AH were they last performed in? Were they replicated by others? Were
they done by people who would have an interest in seeing the test come out in a certain way, ie ppl who often express opinions that AH is infallible?

And one last question do you think the test discussed in this topic is valid?


Offline SageFIN

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Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon
« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2001, 12:17:00 PM »
To this day I have yet to see a single person post even an educated guess of explosive energy's effect on the structural integrity of an airplane as compared to that caused by kinetic energy. IIRC once someone calculated the amount of explosive energy from the amount of HE found in a 13mm explosive machinegun shell. That was that.

We need to ratify the difference between explosive and kinetic energies in what comes to damaging an aircraft. (Well, actually, the developers need to do that but of course it is done already and what we are having here is mere unnecessary speculation and discussion.)

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Offline juzz

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Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2001, 12:57:00 PM »
"Well, actually, the developers need to do that but of course it is done already and what we are having here is mere unnecessary speculation and discussion."

EXACTLY.  

Offline Vermillion

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Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2001, 01:51:00 PM »
Grunherz, the like Funked said earlier, the tests were conducted by Hooligan and Dingy.  

If I remember correctly they were done back in either 1.02 or 1.03 (but I could be wrong) and they were done for most if not all of the primary guns in AH.  

But you should remember there hasn't been any changes to the guns in AH since then. Except the Hispanos were turned down a little bit in one revision, and dispersion was changed in another (this wouldn't have any effect for our purposes however in regards to comparitive lethality since its usually done at close range).

If I remember right, it was done offline by firing at hangers and counting the number of shells it takes to destroy the building. And I also believe that Hooligan and Dingy did the tests seperately, and their results confirmed one another. I think maybe Juzz did some testing too, but its been quite some time ago.

Are there ways to potentially improve the tests? Sure.

1.) You could do them in the TA instead of offline, but I don't think it would have any effect, since your looking to compare each type of gun to each other, under the same testing conditions. ie comparitive lethality.

2.) You could do them by firing at a specific aircraft part (instead of a hanger) for instance the wing or tail of a B-17. This potentially could show some differences than earlier tests, since I remember Pyro a long time ago stating that Aces High had 3 different kinds of targets (from my memory) soft, hard, and armor. He would have to confirm that to be sure though. The biggest problem is that you would have to do these tests in the Training Arena with a second player, and they would have to be repeated many times with the same gun to remove variability and error (at least 10 times each gun or maybe more). In other words its going to take a long time, and two people.

3.) You could conduct the tests at different ranges to see what effect the drop off in kinetic energy is causing, for instance at 50, 300, and 500 yards. This will be difficult to do however as you must insure that your test setup, insures a 100% hit rate of whatever target you are shooting at.

And then you could begin to combine all these concepts into a single test where you fire at hangers and plane parts, from three different distances, all while online.

Also it would have to be done with all the different guns.  From the MG/FF, MG151/20, Mk108, M2 Hispano (English & American if you want to get technical), ShVak, NS-37, B-20 (should be same as ShVak, but to be technically complete it should be done), Type 99-1 , Type 99-2, and those are just the cannons.  The Machine Guns add a whole lot more.

Plus you have to plan your testing regime out ahead of time, pay extreme attention to detail while conducting such tests, and keep meticulous notes and data entries.

So yes, the tests could be redone with the current version, and could theoretically have an improved methodology. But we are talking about a huge time and effort investment.



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Vermillion
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Offline brady

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Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2001, 04:14:00 PM »
Mr. Williams, Ty for clarifying that for me  


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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-14-2001).]

Offline Raubvogel

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Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2001, 11:38:00 AM »
<punt>

funked

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Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2001, 04:10:00 PM »
micro-punt:

 
Quote
Dinger and Hooligan did quantitative lethality tests, and they showed that lethality of the Hispano (per round) is only 14% higher than MG 151/20.
If you consider that the Hispano has 70% greater kinetic energy, the advantage is too small. So something more than kinetic energy is giving the Mauser a great boost.

What is this something? Clearly it is the HE charge. MG 151/20 in AH is getting far more power from HE than the Hispano, as it should.

Offline hazed-

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Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2001, 05:56:00 AM »
Just a quote from 'the Lufftwaffe fighter force:a veiw from the cockpit' by adolf galland et al, by david isby.

'anti-tank missions'
'it was apparent that ordinary ground attack units were not able to destroy enough tanks with their guns,cannons and bombs,but the special anti-tank units with armour piercing cannon and special anti-tank rockets were very successfull.'

realise it says 'destroy ENOUGH tanks' not 'destroy any tanks'  
notice the statement 'VERY SUCCESSFULL'????
jesus people stop argueing that mausers cant kill tanks in RL so they ok in AH.
ITS BS AND YOU KNOW IT IS.

heres some more for you....
'The attacks with armour piercing cannon were conducted like ordinary strafing missions.To ensure hits,the pilots had to approach as close as possible.The best range was 100-150 yards.The gunnery run had to be very even and calm, and the direction of approach was determined by the ground situation and with the 3cm and 37mm weapons aimed at vital points on the tanks'

mmm we cant seem to hurt anywhere on a tank....
but not only this, if we arent going to get the ammunition, then i demand we get some of these......(same book)...

'it was better to use large formations which carried a great number of containers of 4kg hollow charge armour piercing bombs, which can be dropped from halfway outside the effective anti-aircraft fire.'

when can we have these?  

This books information was compiled from interveiws/interrogations conducted by the USAAF just after the war and were intended for the use of the USAAF.They were written by professionals for professionals.there is no room in these accounts for stories, just facts on strategies etc.
Vermillion i dont understand why you dont agree the mausers are screwed for tank killing and the hispanos are just too easy to kill with.
I think you just like to be devils advocate  
HTC give us what the LW had plz.
 
ok rant over  

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Hazed
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[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 03-28-2001).]