Dueling Arena squads disbanded

[boomerlu]

Boomer, if you take those D9s, and duel with a good flyer in them for a few hours on end, when you go back into the multi-bandit environs you will fly so much better slow/on the edge that you will kill turny-burny planes in ways you never thought possible.

Will try it. Good tip.

My point is that it's not a good comparison between pilots though. As SlapShot mentioned, it's possible to be a bad duelist but a good fighter and vice versa. While I disagree with him on a lot of stuff, I agree with him on this point, and that was my intention.

[BnZs]

Will try it. Good tip.

My point is that it's not a good comparison between pilots though. As SlapShot mentioned, it's possible to be a bad duelist but a good fighter

I disagree.

[boomerlu]

I disagree.

Then explain.

[ZetaNine]

random question:  am I the only one here who reads lynx's posts........and hears his voice/accent saying it while I read?

You know what?  If I'd never been to DA furball lake for such things as setting up me stick or what ever.  Your underlying sentiment may actually have an ounce of substance.  I'm not  rolling out the ducking board being as I have been and, bore whiteness to some of these DA squads ganging.

You can excuse yourself as much as you like with your "dot SR"  but furball lake is nothing less than a microcosm of the MA.  I don't know who's plonker your trying pull.  It's certainly not mine and I'm not likely to feel any sheep or "real men" for that matter.

[mechanic]

is it just me that is let down that lynx wont assault any sheep? 

[Masherbrum]

I disagree.

You'd be one of the few that would.   

[BnZs]

Then explain.

1v1 with similar planes is the problem with the fewest variables. It is the basics. You can't do calculus before you learn arithmetic.

The part that muddies the water is that in a massively multi-player arena it is possible to get kills without any air combat maneuvering whatsoever.

[Changeup]

I agree with BnZ .

There are a few different disciplines of ACM going in this game and in my opinion, the best pilots are exceptional at all ACM (BnZ, Turnfighting) but pilots that are great at only one of these disciplines end up in parts when they encounter the other.  If you are putting together "lists" in the DA, you cannot exclude:

HavocVI
JnyBravo

Because in my estimation, these two are pretty darn good at both.

Changeup

[boomerlu]

The part that muddies the water is that in a massively multi-player arena it is possible to get kills without any air combat maneuvering whatsoever.

That's my point. It is all in how you define "best". The guy with the best K/D ratio could simply BnZ all day long being EXTREMELY conservative in his flight style and basically never die. Does that make him good at ACM/dueling?

Conversely, a duelist can be very good at ACM, but if he does not pick his fights in the arena intelligently his score will suffer.

So the above is my point, below this is just discussion. It's not meant to dispute whether or not dueling demonstrates pilot skill.

As far as "doing calculus before arithmetic", a few people have mentioned they can fight better than they can duel (you'd be surprised as for actual calculus and arithmetic; at my school students commonly complain that they are doing "MATH WITHOUT NUMBERS"). It's less variables, but may actually be a harder problem to solve because you don't have any aircraft advantages to use. E.g., when I fight 109K4 vs a P51D, I think to myself... ok... the longer I push this fight the more advantage I will have - my options are shallow spiral climb if he's behind me or aggressive maneuvering to stay on his tail if he's in front of me. In any case, once I have the positional advantage, I will not relinquish it.

Now, let's say it's K4 vs K4. Erm... I have no advantages! Hmm... what do I do? Well, in that case it all depends on what my opponent wants to do! It's more of a chess match because you have no dominant strategy you can use. If he turns very tight for angles, I can outclimb him and turn this into an energy contest - go up and stay out of reach of his guns. If he goes for a big climb for energy, I can pull just slightly more tight than he does and go for guns - it's a gamble.

See how this is already far more complex than an asymmetrical 1v1? In disimilar combat, you have well defined advantages and disadvantages, winning is simply a matter of flying to your advantages and avoiding your disadvantages.

Interestingly enough, that analysis may even further your case that dueling is a good measure of pilot skill. On the other hand... how do you measure pilot skill? Is it in how he strategizes in a duel? Or is it how he flies the aircraft to its advantages in disimilar combat?

[bj229r]

1v1 with similar planes is the problem with the fewest variables. It is the basics. You can't do calculus before you learn arithmetic.

The part that muddies the water is that in a massively multi-player arena it is possible to get kills without any air combat maneuvering whatsoever.

And that IS the rule of the day in the DA Lake, it's the score that matters But over time, in the MA at least, EVERYone knows who the good sticks are, although there often is no quantifiable way of measuring it

[Masherbrum]

And that IS the rule of the day in the DA Lake, it's the score that matters But over time, in the MA at least, EVERYone knows who the good sticks are, although there often is no quantifiable way of measuring it

Yep.

[BnZs]

That's my point. It is all in how you define "best". The guy with the best K/D ratio could simply BnZ all day long being EXTREMELY conservative in his flight style and basically never die. Does that make him good at ACM/dueling?

Shooting down an bandit in the arenas without ACM means either the victim is AFK or distracted by someone *else* actually attempting to fight him. Yo-yos, ropes, and other maneuvers of of "bnz" ARE ACM. Strictly speaking, even shooting someone doing anything besides flying straight and level involves at least a small piece of ACM, so dueling practice will help even the purest "picking" style imaginable.

Conversely, a duelist can be very good at ACM, but if he does not pick his fights in the arena intelligently his score will suffer.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: *Everyone* who can sit upright and operate a keyboard and mouse is smart enough to realize that getting into a prolonged dogfight with another bandit under a cloud of red Spits is not the best way to get home. They are usually just deficient enough in "give a damn" they'd rather take the risk so they get to do abit of fighting and maybe even see who wins before one guy gets picked.

It's less variables, but may actually be a harder problem to solve because you don't have any aircraft advantages to use. E.g., when I fight 109K4 vs a P51D, I think to myself... ok... the longer I push this fight the more advantage I will have - my options are shallow spiral climb if he's behind me or aggressive maneuvering to stay on his tail if he's in front of me. In any case, once I have the positional advantage, I will not relinquish it.

Now, let's say it's K4 vs K4. Erm... I have no advantages! Hmm... what do I do? Well, in that case it all depends on what my opponent wants to do! It's more of a chess match because you have no dominant strategy you can use. If he turns very tight for angles, I can outclimb him and turn this into an energy contest - go up and stay out of reach of his guns. If he goes for a big climb for energy, I can pull just slightly more tight than he does and go for guns - it's a gamble.

See how this is already far more complex than an asymmetrical 1v1? In disimilar combat, you have well defined advantages and disadvantages, winning is simply a matter of flying to your advantages and avoiding your disadvantages.

Interestingly enough, that analysis may even further your case that dueling is a good measure of pilot skill. On the other hand... how do you measure pilot skill? Is it in how he strategizes in a duel? Or is it how he flies the aircraft to its advantages in disimilar combat?

Astute observation, that even an identical plane duel can see the duelists filling the roles of "E-fighter/Angles-fighter" as the situation develops. If you can use E-fighting well enough to gain a definitive edge against another K-4 starting from a Co-E merge and milking a subtle E advantage the opponent gives your through a harder turn, or like example, then you sure the hell can rope a Jug. If you can make another Corsair overshoot you in a duel, you can probably make a 500mph Pony overshoot...if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a plane.

Judging and using the subtle differences in E state and position that can be taken advantage of in a "duel" makes a fine foundation for jusdging less subtle opportunities in dissimilar plane matches.  Make sense?

[WMLute]

Not sure I would consieder Creton a "DA" pilot.

Bear in mind that I have know an flown with/against Creton for what now.... 5 years?    6 maybe?

Actually, there were 2-3 on the  list of potential DA pilots that I know I fight all the time in the LW's.

[Shuffler]

In my 38 I don't mind running into co-alt or lower cons...... the best fun is running into higher cons and working from there. It takes all kinds. I just can't understand the need for squads in a Dueling Arena.

[Masherbrum]

In my 38 I don't mind running into co-alt or lower cons...... the best fun is running into higher cons and working from there. It takes all kinds. I just can't understand the need for squads in a Dueling Arena.

They stick out like a sore thumb in the Late War Arenas.   Sat. Night they were by A30 and you'd see them all on a lone Con's 6.   5-6 of them at times.   Watching them flail, spray, etc my 38J was comedic at times.

Some of that "squads members" were upset with what I said earlier in this thread, only because the truth stared them in the face.   Personally, I don't care to understand their "mob mentality in the DA".   It isn't necessary and if they really want to set up a duel between DA/MA, I'm in.

Maybe, Maybe not.  I could set up top 5 DA to fight your top 5 MA if your interrested I'm sure we could make it happen, of course what does this prove if anything, I would more think of it as fun.  Best 3 out 5 runs same plane, winners or losers could pick next plane, up to u on how to do it.

Top 5,10...IDGAF.    You're on.   I'll take an "MA" spot.  You wanted it, you got it.