Author Topic: Engines runing full blast  (Read 7022 times)

Offline ghostdancer

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #180 on: September 06, 2009, 10:05:53 AM »
Good point Karnak.

As HTC pointed out stiglr sim would also need to:

1) Force a person to wait for the oil to heat up in a plane before take off. So sit on runway for 15 minutes.
2) Then fly true to scale distances before encountering the enemy. Resulting possibly up to several hours before even having a chance of encountering an enemy.

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Offline hitech

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #181 on: September 06, 2009, 10:17:23 AM »
1) Yes, just a very little. I had a flight in a T6 Texan trainer (some time ago...!) I actually did take control and fly the thing. The "real" pilot in the back seat was amazed that, even though I had no experience prior to that, that I could move the plane through the air as well as I did. But then, I underestimated the amount of G I'd pull recovering at the bottom of a loop and had a nice G-LOC experience (didn't think I'd need to "crap the football" for 'just' a loop...) But, it gave me an appreciation for the subject, I will tell you that.

2) Coding. Well... define "coding". I've had to get into the nuts and bolts of the Targetware code, although I don't (and have no desire) to write the CORE code. I do know quite a bit about 3D modeling, 2D artwork (steadily improving to 'yeoman' quality in that arena, although i don't yet hold a candle to the talented individuals who can actually say they're "good"). I am now creating a mod at Targetware called Target:Corregidor, and in that process, I've created and populated an entire full scale terrain of the Philippines and Dutch East Indies, created some 15 planes and variants from scratch, textured those planes, modelled the cockpits and textured those, created some new objects that didn't exist before, written scenarios, and written tutorials to show others how to do some of these things.

How about YOU?

Ahh so you stayed in a Holiday in Express last night. Your using the word CODE in any since of what you have been doing is almost laughable.

1. How many hours of AH have you played, have you played 1 hour of AH?
2. You do know Me109 does use ATA as its manifold pressure in AH? Of course you may not because you have never flown one.

HiTech

Offline Saxman

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #182 on: September 06, 2009, 10:53:54 AM »
Ghost,

I and others have tried pointing out the maintenance issue to Stiggie several times. He's so entrenched on the idea that engines should start failing during a sortie that he's just not listening to it. I'd say he's like a two year old screaming "NONONONONONONONONONONONO!" at the top of his lungs, but at least a two year old would EVENTUALLY GET IT.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline 5PointOh

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #183 on: September 06, 2009, 12:53:26 PM »
So I've read every word of this thread. 

Just a couple points

-Dale, you've accomplished much! I am envious of you in many ways. I for one am not a "COADr" never will I claim to be, and you have created something that has given so many people great happiness.  You are one of the few people in the world I gladly send 14.95 per month to as well :D. This game has brought me many headaches, joys, entertainment, and most importantly friendships. You've allowed me to "live" in a period of time that before I started AH, could have only dreamed or read about. You've given me a chance to pretend I'm behind the stick of a P-51, or being in a Sherman as my grandfather was in WWII.  Thank you for what you have given meYou're also a lot nicer that I apparently. I'd smack Stigly with the super ban stick back around page 3 or 4. 

-Stigma, I'm glad you've got to fly a T-6, glad your instructor thought you were great behind the stick.  I once had to stitch up an open wound, my brother (a family doctor) said I did a real nice job.  Perhaps I should go to the hospital and start telling the doctors there what they are doing wrong. I'm sure they'd be happy with my suggestions.

While your ideas of "engine management" seem wonder (at least in your eyes), they are none the less absurd.  Many real pilots of the AH community have logged more hours in military aircraft than you or I.  I tend to go with their experience vs. your hr or so in a T-6. I've looked at wartime design specs, blueprints, mfg docs, and pilot accounts in regards to performance of many planes in AH.  The shocker is...AH is nearly spot on in every instance. People have TRIED to explain to you the operations of a WWII combat fighter, but you fail to see the point. You want it your way and that’s it.  For some reason I picture you jumping up and down yelling at the PC for us not listening to you. While in reality you are the one not listening. This so called realism that you claim AH is missing is BS.  Airplanes are mechanical devices built by man.  Whenever man is involved problems arise. Whether its limitations due spec, manufacturing, or design.  Should AH model these factors into AH as well? When you create your “SIM” will you model in these items?  This could be thousands of things, metal fatigue on a rod bearing, a loose clamp for a coolant hose, faulty electrical connection, and the list could go on for days.   Also check out zenos warbird drive in, get training films will give you an incite of what pilots had to do just to start some of our favorite birds.  They are complex machines that require hundreds of hours of train to even leave the tarmac.  The pilots of WWII weren’t there for the enjoyment of it, but there to fight.  We do this as a hobby.

-The rest of the AH community, thank you all for the large amounts of information you pass on to me, it just reminds me again why I come back to AH month after month, year after year.  And finally what the hell is targetware? I’m guessing its nothing I should be too concerned about.

Have a great weekend

Nathan




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Offline Stiglr

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #184 on: September 06, 2009, 01:44:05 PM »
Good point Karnak.

As HTC pointed out stiglr sim would also need to:

1) Force a person to wait for the oil to heat up in a plane before take off. So sit on runway for 15 minutes.
2) Then fly true to scale distances before encountering the enemy. Resulting possibly up to several hours before even having a chance of encountering an enemy.



Nope....
Because ground crew stuff certainly is out of the scope of a combat sim, I certainly wouldn't want players to have to sit and warm up on the tarmac. Nor would they need to go through a more complex engine start-up than to hit "E" (which simulates in one button press the magnetos, perhaps having ground crew rotate the prop, wobbling the fuel pump, turning on generators, etc.) That's a perfect example of making some gameplay decisions based on how relevant they are to the real reason we play... the combat.

Which takes us tangentially back to the EM argument. Somebody up above talked about some of the mitigating conditions of engines; how real world conditions (maintenance before and after the virtual pilot takes the seat of the cockpit, etc.) have an effect on the condition of the plane you fly. Doesn't it stand to reason that a simulation would not simulate a "ideal world" where an aircraft is "fresh from the factory" but more like standard wartime conditions at the front?

As for transit, well, I know AH doesn't have anything like it, but for very long transit times, we at TW have a cool little device called an engagement circle, which, combined with airstarts, can bring forces together while STILL factoring in fuel usage getting to and from combat. It's a neat little idea... and it keeps TW mods from ever having to use "postage stamp" partial scale maps.

So, we should be expected to have to fly correct distances... but that doesn't mean that if you're doing "B-17s to Berlin" you need to sit in a chilly virtual cockpit for 3 hours each way. ;)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 01:47:40 PM by Stiglr »

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #185 on: September 06, 2009, 01:49:49 PM »
Nope....
Because ground crew stuff certainly is out of the scope of a combat sim, I certainly wouldn't want players to have to sit and warm up on the tarmac. Nor would they need to go through a more complex engine start-up than to hit "E" (which simulates in one button press the magnetos, perhaps having ground crew rotate the prop, wobbling the fuel pump, turning on generators, etc.) That's a perfect example of making some gameplay decisions based on how relevant they are to the real reason we play... the combat.

As for transit, well, I know AH doesn't have anything like it, but for very long transit times, we have a cool little device called an engagement circle, which, combined with airstarts, can bring forces together while STILL factoring in fuel usage getting to and from combat. It's a neat little idea... and it keeps TW mods from ever having to use "postage stamp" partial scale maps.

So, we should be expected to have to fly correct distances... but that doesn't mean that if you're doing "B-17s to Berlin" you need to sit in a chilly virtual cockpit for 3 hours each way. ;)

I tell you what.   You design a "better" game/sim/whatever the hell you want to call it and we'll still send our money to a stand up Company.   You're trying to trash Dale Addink and his Company.    Grow up already.   You're wrong on your "stance/argument/point/etc" and are now just throwing stones to throw them.   

Why don't you crawl back into your hole and work on your "game"?    Because "sims" ARE "games".    But this game called "Aces High" is something all of us (except yourself) enjoy. 
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #186 on: September 06, 2009, 01:53:07 PM »
Stiglr,

Ok, now you've lost me.  You are ok with air starts, taking player decisions as to what altitude to be at out of the player's hands, yet want to artificially enforce maintainance based engine rules that have no effect on the player now that you have magically teleported the player instantly into the combat theater.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #187 on: September 06, 2009, 04:32:26 PM »
Stiglr:
Something you may not have noticed...AHII pilots are already limited to "by the book" WEP times. IOW, for all intents and purposes they are more limited in WEP usage than real pilots were.

You STILL have not given ONE data point on how long engine X in plane Y should run before Z happens to it. In fact, all the evidence presented thus to far seems to point to a conclusion diametrically opposite your diatribes, that the airplanes we have in AHII could probably be flown at military power settings until they ran out of fuel without incident 90% of the time or better.
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Offline minke

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #188 on: September 06, 2009, 06:18:59 PM »
 steps for a fix -

1 Find stiglr's in game tag

2 add a /. command such as /.*tag* engineout

3 hey presto,there's your malfunction

4 also add /.*tag* blackout

5 there's you sleep deprivation

FIXED  :salute

Offline ghostdancer

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #189 on: September 06, 2009, 08:54:19 PM »
Basically you are all for added this or that unless you decide you don't like. As stated previously in this thread by people who have experience with engines, aircraft, maintenance, etc. the factors you want aren't a consideration unless:

1) Poor maintenance
2) Environmental conditions
3) Poor production quality
4) Equipment wearing out and no supply parts handy (which is why battle damaged planes were cannibalized)

All of these are factors that actually are the root cause of engine failure or equipment failure. Running an engine at military power, for a 30 minute window is not.

You say you don't want to simulate it since it is a combat sim. However, to be a true combat sim you would have to factor in those things. You would also have to factor in sleep deprivation, malnourished, effects of illness, etc. on pilots to actually simulate the environment you want.

Instead you have stated you made a game play decision to ignore these factors. Well at least the oil engine heat up factor and the flight time to target factor because you don't want to deal with that but just deal with combat. Yet those factors effect the machine and pilot during combat so by your quest for a simulation you must factor those and not skip them.

The real world conditions are the rub that everybody actually are discussing. How do you deal with them? Can you deal with them?

You could right code that randomly causes a engine or mechanical issue. But it would be random since you can't actually track and say player Y has flown plane X for 1000 hours. Even if you did track that would be realistic since in that time player Y might have died or loss his plane 500 times. So it makes it very difficult to track plane usage and applied variable for wear and tear.

Next different theaters had different rates of maintenance quality, supply resources, and environmental factors. For example the Aleutians had I believe the highest loss rate of aircraft. But this was do to the environment and maintenance issues.

So we are back to having a code randomly throw mechanical failure at your. Again EM doesn't come in since you have to write code that randomly throws things at you to simulate the effects of poor maintenance or not overhauling an engine that has been flown at military power for X hours.

As for factory fresh or no production issues. Many people have brought that up in the past. The Ki-84 performs as it was design to. Not as it actually did in combat because production quality is not factored in. Same goes for other planes such as the Brewster. The B-239 Finnish model performs well because it is a different variant than what the British used in Malaya or the Americans at Midway. Other threads deal with the exact differences. Another difference is that the Finns had very few planes, had excellent pilots, and concentrated their resources on keep the planes they had flying. While in Malaya the British pilots were not experienced, the ground crews were not experienced or familiar with the Brewster model they had, and they definitely did not have an adequate supply of parts. All of these factors (as Widewing, Squire, and others in different threads) impacted the performance of the Brewster model used there.

So again you come down to simulating combat but without the parts you don't like. Supply, maintenance, sleep, food, illness. All of these effected pilot and plane performance. Also you state to skip over the things you don't like such as sitting on the runway waiting for the oil to heat up or the flight time to target. Those also effect the combat because you have to factor in pilot fatigue which was a real issue.

The effects if engine management are dealt with over the operational life of an aircraft not in short combat hop.

As stated you could write code that randomizes mechanical issues (degradation of engine do to abuse and poor maintenance, gun games, ordinance not working .. torps and bombs failed to work early one, etc.) but Dale has made a decision that this would not actually benefit game play. Simply put you up, you fly 15 minutes or more to a fight in the MA, you line up on an enemy plane and press the trigger get a few rounds off then nada. How much do you think the player will like this? Same goes for almost any mechanical failure. Say you are in Ki-84 and go into and maneuvering hard but within normal limits while chasing and enemy plane. Then the randomize decides your plane has been of poor production quality and you have a structural failure in one of your flight surfaces and bam kiss dirt because of it.  I would hazard to say you would very quickly kill off your clientèle because they can't predict when it will happen. Who wants to spend time online only to have a random event take you out to simulate environmental degradation of your plane, or production quality, or lack of spare parts, or the fact that the plane is simulating being shot up and repaired X many times, or lack of ground crew, or poor maintenance, etc.

Those are the things that affect the aircraft and whether there are mechanical issues or not. As stated by those such as Widewing, who have many hours of real world experience, a well maintained plane would not have the issues you are discussing. Those issues come about because of an accumulaton of various factors over an extended time period.

Running the engine at military power would not cause what you think it would unless those other factors came into play before the virtual pilot even got into the cockpit. Without a way of modelling that it becomes just a random occurrence that would produce more negative consequences than positive since the player would not have any advance warning they were flying in worn out plane. If they did what stops them from not taking off and spawning until they get a plane in better condition.

You have what an hour in a Texan where the pilot let you fly it? Yet you are trying to tell several people who have 100s if not more hours of flight time that your experience is as valid as yours. You also have people who have direct knowledge and experience with maintenance issues but again you insist you who have no experience in this area are right and they are not. You have MODed an existing game and are trying to equate that with the experience of a person who coded not one but two flight sims from scratch. Not modified somebody else code, or skinned something, or used existing flight models to create new flight models. A person who design the whole kit .. damage model, energy, physics, etc., etc. not once but twice.

However, I'm out since it is like debating somebody in a different language. You are presented evidence and opinion from several people who have direct real world experience. Yet refuse the acknowledge this or the possibility they might know what they are talking about. You are asked to actually site examples and you don't. At this point I think you are just trolling and stirring up things up to get a kick out of it. So I am out.




 
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #190 on: September 06, 2009, 09:39:45 PM »
Ghostdancer,

You are wrong on many counts.  For example, the Ki-84 does not perform as it was designed to, it performs as it did when operable.  If it performed as it was designed it would top out at about 425mph and not shed control surfaces.
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Offline Stiglr

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #191 on: September 06, 2009, 10:50:42 PM »
No duh, he's wrong on many counts. And so are a lot of the others.

If you'll recall WAYYY further up, I presented more evidence about EM from a person who was THERE.

All you Cessna fliers and peacetime fliers have exactly the same "stick time" in real, shootin'-war combat in WWII fighters as I have: NONE.

Franz Stigler flew the whole war... and when I asked him specific questions about EM, he answered them. No, he didn't quote exact times you can expect an engine to give out... but he did say, categorically, that one did NOT fly around at 100% throttle all sortie. He DID say that this was mostly to save the engine for that 15 minute time period during a one hour flight when you really needed the power.

So, forgive me if I take his word for it. And also forgive me if I also factor in first person written account from other men who were there. No, I can't refute your real life, peacetime piloting experience.

But, I'm not all wet when I assert that engines DID have to be managed, and managed correctly.

I suppose we'll have to be at an impasse on this.

Offline moot

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #192 on: September 06, 2009, 11:11:03 PM »
This game isn't TW.
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Offline 1pLUs44

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #193 on: September 06, 2009, 11:33:13 PM »
He's making a game, but he's telling HTC that they suck? And his game is going to be so much better apparently? So why go on here and bash HTC?

Oh, and I've played Targetware, not fun at all.
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Offline 5PointOh

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Re: Engines runing full blast
« Reply #194 on: September 07, 2009, 12:03:51 AM »
So all of this talk about TW got me curious...so I took a trip over there, stumbled on their forums.  Guess who I found beating his drum...Stiglatta

Quote from Stigla @ http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=15867&highlight=aces+high

I just had about a week-long argument with those folks on their board about the subject of engine management... they're so stuck in their "gamer entitlement" mentality that they won't even admit that no, you couldn't roar around at 100% throttle without any ramifications.

It's hilarious. They challenge me to provide written proof and stats that tell them exactly how long you can expect to abuse an engine before it will, with 100% certainty, explode... and then ignore the fact that every pilot manual/maintenance manual gives parameters by which to run the engine... and they ignore the fact that, if they didn't really NEED to put things like mixture controls, cooling flap levers, prop pitch controls, etc., into aircraft they wouldn't have. There was no automatic operation of much in those days.

It was kind of fun, kind of frustrating. But, now I know why those people probably aren't our "low-hanging fruit": it didn't take very long for the "it's just a GAME" explanation to come out. And that, really, is the long and short of it. They can't be bothered to want realism, simply because it gets in the way of their "fun game



Its now clear to me, your just a troll, nothing more. I doubt you've ever played AH. If so what was your screen name?  Im sure in TW you have a manual for everyplane and operate it according to the manual.
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