Icons for GV's

[flight17]

That will be perfectly fair and consistent if we also get rid of icons above planes. Because how can an eagle-eyed pilot be able to spot a little Brewster six thousand yards away, but be unable to spot a thirty-ton tank at a mere 1,000 yards?

P.S. How is that Il2 pilot going to tell your Panzer from a friendly one without Icons?

P.P.S. Huh...come to think of it...how is  a guy percolating along in a P-51D going to be able to tell the friendly IL2s from enemy ones? Etc and so forth?

well you could do it the old fashioned way and get close enough to identify them instead of people just firing away from 800 out or whenever they feel like it. though there would have to be something added to the aircraft like a logo on the tail with a color so you can tell if it is enemy or not since it could be a p-51 vs a p-51...

but the fact is, how is the ability for a plane to spot a tank that is hiding under trees with a skin the color of the tree or of the ground around them realistic? before the new texture change, we had trees that you could go under and not be seen at all, but yet you could get turreted or tracked, killed, etc by an air con from above. tell me how they found me? the only possible way they could have found me is beceause of the red icon. now how is that fair to me? If im out in the open then yes, i should fair game to anyone, but when i cant be seen and then get killed by someone from above, thats complete BS because it is favored in the aircraft favor. the amount of aircraft in an area has nothing to do with it.

someone said earlier that GVers just need to live with it... i would bet that was from a constant fighter pilot... werent fighter pilots just complaining about the bomber pilots(the merit of why they did it doesnt matter) taking out hangars at a base near a furball? why dont you just live with that because thats absolutely no different then the fighter pilots coming over to tank town which has alot of thick brush and being able to drop and kill gvs that other whise they wouldnt be able to see without that tag or any other place that a gv battle might be happening where there is no intention to take the base.

[Bronk]

How would you gv types like it if the AC icons were removed?

[sethipus]

How would you gv types like it if the AC icons were removed?

From enemy planes?  Sure, why not?

I'm all for removing enemy GV icons.  The whole IL-2, B-25H, bomb**** thing is getting out of hand.  I GV a lot, and I really appreciate a good GV fight.  There's nothing worse than being in a decent tank battle and having some bomb****s show up and just pummel you into the ground continually.  And don't even start with the "well just bring some wirbles" crap.  There are plenty of times when there simply aren't enough people available to fill up all of the theoretical slots in whatever fight we're having.  In real life these battles would be fought by thousands, in this game we'll have sometimes two or three guys on one side versus two or three guys on the other.  And then the bomb****s show up and ruin it.

I've killed a metric zillion IL-2s, B-25s, and other planes with my main gun in my T34.  Sure, it works with the worst of the noobs, but the more experienced ILtards know to just come in from a higher angle.

There's a very good reason there are no enemy GV icons when viewed from a GV.  Every good tanker in this game knows that being able to estimate the range to the target is about 1/2 of the battle, with the other half being SA and clever mobility.  There's really no good reason for airplanes ever to have an icon on an enemy GV.

I have been frustrated myself a few times when I was looking for a GV and I couldn't find it until I got within the magical 1.5k and got the icon.  Good.  I should have not even gotten the icon then, either.  Give the poor guys on the ground a chance to be clever and remain unseen from the air, like it should be.  We'd have to do a lot more to possibly tip the balance in favor of the guys on the ground.

+1 to removing icons from enemy GVs for all vehicle types, both ground (as it is already) and air (as it should be)

[sethipus]

I just thought up one very practical bonus to not having enemy GV icons.

Guys who dive-bomb tanks know to drop their bomb just when the range changes from 800 to 600.  Any lower and they will probably drop too low and it won't go off.  Any higher and the accuracy drops and it's harder to hit with the bomb.

Removing the GV icons as seen from the air would remove the way to perfectly time the bomb drops.  Guys would have to get very, very good at estimating the range to get the best drop they could while still having the bomb go off.  I'm betting that the practical upshot would be a lot more bombs dropping from 200-400 yards higher than usual, with the consequent drop in accuracy, and increase in survivability of tanks against the bomb****s.

HTC, please take these things into consideration and remove enemy GV icons completely, from any vehicle type.  There's no good reason planes should have enemy icons for GVs, and lots of practical upshot for removing them in terms of air/ground balance.

[BnZs]

well you could do it the old fashioned way and get close enough to identify them instead of people just firing away from 800 out or whenever they feel like it.

There are cases of pilots observing and identifying enemy A/C literally *miles* away. In AHII it is demonstrably impossible to consistently and correctly identify other a/c at 600 yards using normal zoom. No icons would mean it would no longer be Aces High, it would be "Legally blind Pilots High".

but the fact is, how is the ability for a plane to spot a tank that is hiding under trees with a skin the color of the tree or of the ground around them realistic? before the new texture change, we had trees that you could go under and not be seen at all, but yet you could get turreted or tracked, killed, etc by an air con from above. tell me how they found me? the only possible way they could have found me is beceause of the red icon. now how is that fair to me? If im out in the open then yes, i should fair game to anyone, but when i cant be seen and then get killed by someone from above, thats complete BS because it is favored in the aircraft favor. the amount of aircraft in an area has nothing to do with it.

someone said earlier that GVers just need to live with it... i would bet that was from a constant fighter pilot... werent fighter pilots just complaining about the bomber pilots(the merit of why they did it doesnt matter) taking out hangars at a base near a furball? why dont you just live with that because thats absolutely no different then the fighter pilots coming over to tank town which has alot of thick brush and being able to drop and kill gvs that other whise they wouldnt be able to see without that tag or any other place that a gv battle might be happening where there is no intention to take the base.

The trees in AHII do not form any sort solid canopy. Just not in the design There is no "Amazon Basin forest" terrain. The GV icon becomes visible at 1.5K for aircrat. That is 4,000 feet, less than a mile. If you think it would be impossible for a pilot to see a large tank even in broken tree cover from 4,000 feet, then you are again suggesting that we should be "Legally Blind Pilots High".

I have explained at length what the problem in AHII is. There are far more people interested in bombing GVs than in driving GVs, or in covering GVs for that matter apparently. And unsupported GVs *should* be fodder for any air forces the enemy brings to the table. I have been in a GV getting bombed *far* more often then I have been the bomber. It is annoying but does not justify illogical and inconsistent changes to the game.

[Rich46yo]

A-typical whine about all the other players ruining my game experience by shooting me. HiTech please set this straight so nobody kills my tank.

I'm all for removing enemy GV icons.  The whole IL-2, B-25H, bomb**** thing is getting out of hand.  I GV a lot, and I really appreciate a good GV fight.  There's nothing worse than being in a decent tank battle and having some bomb****s show up and just pummel you into the ground continually.  And don't even start with the "well just bring some wirbles" crap.  There are plenty of times when there simply aren't enough people available to fill up all of the theoretical slots in whatever fight we're having.  In real life these battles would be fought by thousands, in this game we'll have sometimes two or three guys on one side versus two or three guys on the other.  And then the bomb****s show up and ruin it.

Thereyago. Game the game by shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank. "Just pleeeeze make it so airplanes cant kill me".

I've killed a metric zillion IL-2s, B-25s, and other planes with my main gun in my T34.  Sure, it works with the worst of the noobs, but the more experienced ILtards know to just come in from a higher angle.

I have an idea. Why not change the game so only you can see the icons and no-one else? Then we can make "your" tank impervious to bombs and heavy cannon. Then we can change the rules so that any airplane has to come into your tank flat so's you can gun them down with your main gun. And last we can make you invisible so nobody can kill you.

Whatcha think?

I have been frustrated myself a few times when I was looking for a GV and I couldn't find it until I got within the magical 1.5k and got the icon.  Good.  I should have not even gotten the icon then, either.  Give the poor guys on the ground a chance to be clever and remain unseen from the air, like it should be.  We'd have to do a lot more to possibly tip the balance in favor of the guys on the ground.

I knew this was going to turn into a Waaa-Waaa-Waaa thread.

[onan]

Thereyago. Game the game by shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank. "Just pleeeeze make it so airplanes cant kill me".
I have an idea. Why not change the game so only you can see the icons and no-one else? Then we can make "your" tank impervious to bombs and heavy cannon. Then we can change the rules so that any airplane has to come into your tank flat so's you can gun them down with your main gun. And last we can make you invisible so nobody can kill you.

Whatcha think?

 

[caldera]

Tons of fun being a bomb****. Especially using something different like a TBM or B5N2. 

As far as the GV icons go, how about this?

- Icons for Wirbles, Ostis and M-16s at 1.5.  The current set up is a fair compromise here.

- Icons for troop carriers at 1.5.  No way that the all-important troops get a pass.

- No icons for tanks except within 1.5 of the town or field.  As long as tanks just wanna duke it out with other tanks, you'll have no icon.  Try to kill the town or camp the field and the bomb light is on. 

[trotter]

+1 for caldera's idea

+2 for seth's idea. GV's should not have icons.


Edit - ENEMY gv's should not have icons.

[sethipus]

A-typical whine about all the other players ruining my game experience by shooting me. HiTech please set this straight so nobody kills my tank.

I didn't say anything about changing the lethality of the various weapons employed by airplanes against tanks.  I'm talking visibility only.  Do you have a problem with there not being enemy GV icons when you are in a tank?  Do you mind having to spot enemy tanks by actually seeing the tank, rather than some neon sign over its head?  If you think the "no enemy gv icons when viewed from a tank" setup, then why do you oppose it from planes?  What makes planes so special that enemy ground forces should be pointed out with neon signs, but the tankers on the ground have to actually see the tanks?

Methinks you don't tank very much.

Thereyago. Game the game by shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank. "Just pleeeeze make it so airplanes cant kill me".

You're obviously interspersing your conversation with me with some conversation with another person, because this cannot rationally be seen as a response to anything I said.

I agree that shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank, other than planes on the ground, is pretty gamey.  I'm also probably the king of doing this in the MAs, and it's a distinction I am proud to bear.  The bottom line is that in real life, while it would be unrealistic for tanks to shoot down airborne planes with their main guns, the tanks would also be accompanied by anti-aircraft batteries, infantry with automatic weapons, and so forth.  Like I said before, tank battles in real life involved thousands of people.  Fighters did not dive down and strafe tanks unhindered, passing five to ten feet over the tops of the tanks.  IL2s were not free to just circle above and make countless dives onto a given tank and peck it to death, without having to run a gauntlet of various weapons fired at it from the ground.  Show me where B-25s were ever used as anti-tank platforms in the way they are in Aces High.

Obviously, the air-to-ground fighter strafing and whatnot is occurring in a totally unrealistic way.  If tanks in Aces High are able to kill stupid strafing fighters easily with their main guns, up to the maximum elevation of the gun (which isn't that high, really), then so be it.  It's one of the few concessions tankers get for having to put up with hoards of Spit 16s and LA 7s strafing them constantly.

And the more experienced ILtards and B25tards know, after they've been main-gunned a couple of times, to just come down from a higher angle, higher than the main gun can elevate.  I really hope you're not actually complaining about tank main guns killing fighters though.  In the overall balance of things, I think that is the absolutely most trivial of problems in terms of realism.

I have an idea. Why not change the game so only you can see the icons and no-one else? Then we can make "your" tank impervious to bombs and heavy cannon. Then we can change the rules so that any airplane has to come into your tank flat so's you can gun them down with your main gun. And last we can make you invisible so nobody can kill you.

Why are you making a love muffin of yourself?

Whatcha think?

Apparently a lot more than you do.

I knew this was going to turn into a Waaa-Waaa-Waaa thread.

I made cogent arguments, and offered reasoned justifications for my suggestions.  You came into this acting like a clown in some sort of verbal food fight, and acted like a love muffin.

[OOZ662]

Oh jeeze...just has to turn into a word brawl.

[Rich46yo]

I didn't say anything about changing the lethality of the various weapons employed by airplanes against tanks.  I'm talking visibility only.  Do you have a problem with there not being enemy GV icons when you are in a tank?  Do you mind having to spot enemy tanks by actually seeing the tank, rather than some neon sign over its head?  If you think the "no enemy gv icons when viewed from a tank" setup, then why do you oppose it from planes?  What makes planes so special that enemy ground forces should be pointed out with neon signs, but the tankers on the ground have to actually see the tanks?

Methinks you don't tank very much.
You're obviously interspersing your conversation with me with some conversation with another person, because this cannot rationally be seen as a response to anything I said.

I agree that shooting airplanes with the main gun of a tank, other than planes on the ground, is pretty gamey.  I'm also probably the king of doing this in the MAs, and it's a distinction I am proud to bear.  The bottom line is that in real life, while it would be unrealistic for tanks to shoot down airborne planes with their main guns, the tanks would also be accompanied by anti-aircraft batteries, infantry with automatic weapons, and so forth.  Like I said before, tank battles in real life involved thousands of people.  Fighters did not dive down and strafe tanks unhindered, passing five to ten feet over the tops of the tanks.  IL2s were not free to just circle above and make countless dives onto a given tank and peck it to death, without having to run a gauntlet of various weapons fired at it from the ground.  Show me where B-25s were ever used as anti-tank platforms in the way they are in Aces High.

Obviously, the air-to-ground fighter strafing and whatnot is occurring in a totally unrealistic way.  If tanks in Aces High are able to kill stupid strafing fighters easily with their main guns, up to the maximum elevation of the gun (which isn't that high, really), then so be it.  It's one of the few concessions tankers get for having to put up with hoards of Spit 16s and LA 7s strafing them constantly.

And the more experienced ILtards and B25tards know, after they've been main-gunned a couple of times, to just come down from a higher angle, higher than the main gun can elevate.  I really hope you're not actually complaining about tank main guns killing fighters though.  In the overall balance of things, I think that is the absolutely most trivial of problems in terms of realism.
Why are you making a love muffin of yourself?Apparently a lot more than you do.I made cogent arguments, and offered reasoned justifications for my suggestions.  You came into this acting like a clown in some sort of verbal food fight, and acted like a love muffin.[/qoute]


Aww shaddup boy. Listen Im sure the entire world feels bad for you that people are actually trying to kill your GV in this game. We all have that problem too. Folks are always shooting at the rest of us as well. Its the self indulgent Waaa-fest that gets tiring. By the Waaa-tards like you. Its a Bi-weekly thing now. A Tank Queen gets his tank shot up and trots in here crying about it. In a flight sim game no less. This one tho I am saving.
 

[qoute]I'm all for removing enemy GV icons.  The whole IL-2, B-25H, bomb**** thing is getting out of hand.  I GV a lot, and I really appreciate a good GV fight.  There's nothing worse than being in a decent tank battle and having some bomb****s show up and just pummel you into the ground continually.  And don't even start with the "well just bring some wirbles" crap.  There are plenty of times when there simply aren't enough people available to fill up all of the theoretical slots in whatever fight we're having.  In real life these battles would be fought by thousands, in this game we'll have sometimes two or three guys on one side versus two or three guys on the other.  And then the bomb****s show up and ruin it.

I've killed a metric zillion IL-2s, B-25s, and other planes with my main gun in my T34.  Sure, it works with the worst of the noobs, but the more experienced ILtards know to just come in from a higher angle.

Its all about "you" aint it junior? You can game the game but nobody should be allowed to interfere with your game.

BTW try bringing some flak with you.

[onan]

Its all about "you" aint it junior? You can game the game but nobody should be allowed to interfere with your game.

BTW try bringing some flak with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzjbV-yTomY

[sethipus]

What part of "just as tanks cannot see icons for enemy tanks, planes ought not to either, for the following set of good reasons", is about me?

Seriously, wtf are you talking about?

Ah, I get it, you're just a troll.  Nevermind.

[Rich46yo]

Yeah I remember you Sethie. Heres how you fight legit. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,263487.0.html

So now you want no icons and those pesky IL2s to come in flat so's you can whack them with your bouncing tank shell technique? If I ever see you in tank town I think I'll upp some Lanc-stukas. Ive never done that before but one gamey road kill technique does deserve another.

At least I know how you kill so many IL2s. You use a cheesy,overlooked mistake in the game modeling. And here you are crying about bomb****s and icons. You naughty boy.

April 23, 2009, 06:19:39 PM » Quote  

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For much of the last year I've been using a technique to kill planes that strafe my tanks.  I am most often in the T34, and I have found this technique to be insanely good at killing a lot of fighter dweebs with nothing better to do than spray machine-gun and 20mm cannon rounds at my tanks.  For the first few months I hardly told anyone about this technique except squadmates, and even then I never saw anyone else do it.  In recent months I've been telling people about it, and still not seeing much uptake of the technique.

Recently I shared this technique with a bunch of tankers in the beta frame of the current Tunisia scenario, so I'm thinking some others are finally going to be doing it.  I also recently sent film of this technique to some specific players whom I'd killed with it, and at least one of them, Strong10, has been doing it the last several days, and sending me excited PMs in game about how cool he thinks it is, and how many kills he's racked up with it.

Well, I want everyone to know about this.  I may well reduce the number of kills I get with it once it becomes more generally understood, but that's OK with me.  It will change the ground game to some small degree I hope, making it harder to get away with strafing tanks.  I think this would be a good thing.

I am not talking about the technique of aiming just over the engine cowling of an incoming plane and firing an AP round into the engine or cockpit, killing the incoming plane.  I do this technique as well, when I can, and it's very effective, and very satisfying.

This other technique is one I use when I know I will not be able to get my turret around in time to get a shot off at the incoming plane.  It's also somewhat easier to get kills with, though shooting tank rounds into the engine block is pretty darn easy once you get the hang of it.

This technique is also often effective when the planes are coming in at too steep an angle to shoot at directly.

Ok, so now to the technique.

When you recognize that a plane is incoming to strafe you, turn your turret away from that plane.  I mean exactly opposite of the plane's incoming path.  As soon as the plane passes overhead, fire an HE round into the ground.  The timing is not hard to get right, especially if your tank's engine is off, because you will hear a very pronounced doppler effect as the strafing plane passes overhead.

If you did it right, an HE round will be going off on the ground pretty much right under a plane that's usually no more than 20 feet or so off the ground.  This will instantly kill most planes.  Sometimes, when the angle isn't exactly right, you'll merely break a wing off or something, and they'll plow into the ground and die.  On occasion I've merely lit a plane on fire, or smoked their engine, but these are fairly rare.  By far the most common result is instant death.

This game has been around a long time, and I cannot claim that nobody else has ever done this.  If so, then the technique has been invented independently multiple times.  I invented it myself about a year or so ago having never seen it done before, or heard of it being done.  Not having ever seen or heard of this being done before, I've thought of this as the Sethbag technique for killing strafing fighters, and I wanted to share it with everyone, so it becomes common practice for experienced tankers.

I've gotten very good at it.  In tank runs with lots of planes eager to strafe me I've racked up as many as multiple dozen kills this way, or through a combination of this technique and direct-fire shots into the engine block.

Here are some film clips demonstrating this technique.

This first film demonstrates me blowing up a Bf 110 that strafes my tank.  Notice that I see the plane coming from the commander's cupola position, so I know he's coming, and approximately from what angle.  I switch to my gun, load up HE rounds, and take the shot as he passes overhead.  It's not even perfectly underneath his plane, but he still blows up.

When viewing these clips, make sure to check the "Use recorded views" option, so you see what I was seeing as I did this.

t34 kills strafing 110

This second film demonstrates a kill against a Spitfire strafing me from the side.  Notice that I see the incoming plane, and watch him for a couple of seconds, so I know he's coming.  You can see me rotating the turret around to approximately opposite the flight path of the incoming plane, and take the shot.  Instant plane kill.

t34 kills Spitfire strafing from the side

A couple of comments.  In addition to the doppler effect that gives away the timing of the plane passing overhead, if you have good headphones you can tell as you rotate your turret about when you're pointed the right direction, because the incoming airplane engine noise will go from coming more out of one side of the headphones, to coming out more or less balanced in both sides.  That means the guy's straight behind you, and he's going to fly right over the spot your aiming at on the ground.

Remember to depress the muzzle all the way down, so you shoot into the ground very close to the tank.

This technique works in any type of tank, but it works the best in the T34, because the T34 turret rotates so quickly, much more quickly than any other tank's turret.  If you're moving, however, if you get a good feel for what direction the gun needs to be pointing to get this shot off, you can just turn the tank, and then jump into the gunsight for the shot.  This helps if you're in a tank with a very slow-traversing turret, such as the Tiger.

And now, here's one more film clip, but it's not using the techqnique outlined above.  It was just a very good tank to plane kill that I wanted to kind of show off.  Sue me.  

nice tank to IL-2 lead shot from main gun

Btw, this technique, once mastered, leads to other really cool tank vs. plane killshots.  The other day I saw a 109 K4 diving in to strafe an M3 from my side that was about to release troops.  I aimed my T34 main gun at the ground near the M3 and selected HE.  When the K4 passed over the M3 I fired, and killed the K4.  Unfortunately for me, my round hit too close to the M3 and the killshooter effect killed my own tank too.  But I've done this with other friendly tanks where I killed a guy strafing them, without killing myself.

Anyhow, there it is, now discuss.