Eric Hartmann was a HO'er...

[Strip]

I think WMLute said it best...

You can be halfway into your intial move before the other pilot has finished firing.

[BlauK]

Steve, I dont understand what you are trying to say, because I dont know what HO means to you. To me some of those sentences do not make sense, like "loooking for a HO gun solution". IMO no-one does that. Everyone is looking for a gun solution, but they do not wish the opponent to have one, do they? 

[LLogann]

LLogann doesn't "look for a ho"  But if Steve wants to approach that close, Steve will be dead.  Bet on it.  Afterall Mr. Only Fly Fighters, my K/D isn't all that far from yours.  But thanks for the trash talk nonetheless........   

  The people who HO are immediately putting themselves at a disadvantage in the fight and they are most often easy victims  Look at LLogan, he HO's every time he gets the chance(his words). 1V1, I'd bet money he's an easy kill. While LLogan's looking for a HO gun solution, an experienced stick will avoid the HO and already be working on his first post merge move. 

Sure LLogan will "win"  a fight now and then with a HO, but have him run into an experienced stick and he'll be defensive then quickly killed, post merge.

With all of that said........  If you only fly fighters, you miss out on the rest of the game.  Those of us multi mode players whine less about ho'ing.... AT the same time.....  <RESPECT> Steve.... I appreciate why it bothers you so much since you only fly fighters. 

Maybe the answer is a Fighter arena.  1 type of flight only, tied into Late War.  That way people can brush up on fighter skill and maybe even be a little more mindful that the ho is no good for anybody.

[Shuffler]

MAs are fighter arenas. All the rest is just fill. 

Not sure what that has to do with someone HOing though.

[Reaper90]

Wrong, it's still a HO. If one person is shot attempting to avoid the HO and the bullets don't happen to hit him in the face, it's still a HO.

Technically, no, if the HOed pilot gave up his gun solution without firing in order to initiate a maneuver. At that point it is a very high angle deflection shot, but one that the shooter is a dirty maggot for taking in my opinion.  It may not be a HO since only one pilot still had a gun solution when the first rounds were fired, but that doesn't make it any better or "OK" than a standard face shot HO.

[Reaper90]

Bottom line is, if you're flying level 12 at somebody, doesn't matter if you're one of the AH aces, who do not ho..... All that matters is your there, right there.  Do you expect the other not to fire?  Then you're just silly.... Perhaps stupid......

Perhaps.

I've merged with some of the good guys in this game.  At 2k we are dead 12, at 1.5 he teeters left, so i teeter right...... AT 1k now it is clear that we will pass, and we do.  But if you lack ACM and remain head-on and not fire.....  There is no excuse for that, that's just you living in a fantasy world other then this fantasy world.

So you're relying on the other guy to "teeter" first? Then you make a matching move indicating you want a clean fight?

What is he doesn't move? What if he's waiting on you to make the first move, and when you don't he's thinking exactly what you're thinking, and you both end up trying to give each other a face full of lead?

See why I said "perhaps" above? 'Cause that might not be it every time, that the person is silly or stupid to expect to not get HOed, he maybe just doesn't want to be the first one to give up the gun solution knowing that there's a chance that he's opening the door for the other guy to take a lucky shot that he may or may not make it though alive.

I've been killed a few times by very good sticks who HOed, ahem high angle front quarter shot me after I made a move to avoid the HO. Instead of making a matching move, they kicked the rudder and sprayed me as we merged. I would have been better suited to keep my nose on them and dared them to do it as I'd surely be sending 20mm back.

Truth is, I've had a lot of luck in the N1K2J with HOers... it amazes me that people want to joust against that thing. I just wait til I see rounds coming from their guns, and BAM, let loose.

[Steve]

Technically, no,

wrong

[LLogann]

I find the Shuffler's of the world will make their intentions known, albeit, very subtle.  And that's what you need to look for.  And no not always, I make the same sway move to see if I get a reaction.  Despite what Steve may think..... Aside from Newbs, who only have the ho as their ACM, NOBODY enjoys ho'ing.  Even if you win, odds are your shot up pretty good.  So where do you go from there?

Perhaps.

So you're relying on the other guy to "teeter" first? Then you make a matching move indicating you want a clean fight?

What is he doesn't move? What if he's waiting on you to make the first move, and when you don't he's thinking exactly what you're thinking, and you both end up trying to give each other a face full of lead?

[Reaper90]

wrong

So if only one guy has a gun solution, Steve, where you you draw the line on separation? Is it still a HO if one guy turned his nose away at 200? 600? 1000? 1.5K?

[BlauK]

Just thought of Dicta Boelcke... sections 2 and especially 6 
Many might call Boelcke "HOer" as well...

[Steve]

LLogann doesn't "look for a ho"  But if Steve wants to approach that close, Steve will be dead.  Bet on it.  Afterall Mr. Only Fly Fighters, my K/D isn't all that far from yours.  But thanks for the trash talk nonetheless........   

With all of that said........  If you only fly fighters, you miss out on the rest of the game.  Those of us multi mode players whine less about ho'ing.... AT the same time.....  <RESPECT> Steve.... I appreciate why it bothers you so much since you only fly fighters. 

Maybe the answer is a Fighter arena.  1 type of flight only, tied into Late War.  That way people can brush up on fighter skill and maybe even be a little more mindful that the ho is no good for anybody.

Well K/D isn't necessarily a reflection of skill and I'm not claiming to be particularly skilled myself. I don't know what your K/D is as I don't know what your CPID is.
I may indeed be missing out on the rest of the game, but I'm having fun. I don't begrudge bombers and ground pounders, if that's fun for them...    

Ho'ing only bothers me now and then. Usually when I'm 1v1 and the guy hits me.  A good 1v1 is pretty rare in the MA and I'd rather the opponent try to outfly me than simply joust with me. I don't know how to quantify it but I'm certain in my mind that those who are willing to maneuver for the HO at the merge are less of a killer than a comparably skilled guy who is thinking merge/post merge moves.

[Steve]

So if only one guy has a gun solution, Steve, where you you draw the line on separation? Is it still a HO if one guy turned his nose away at 200? 600? 1000? 1.5K?

Ahhh excellent point here. It's tough to draw a definitive line, I think, don't you? I think there is a difference between turning away and avoiding a HO/collision.

[Steve]

 Despite what Steve may think.....  NOBODY enjoys ho'ing.  

Then why do around 90+% of the people I merge with in the MA try to HO?

Even if you win, odds are your shot up pretty good.  So where do you go from there?

This is my point exactly! Sadly, a significant portion of the community would be happy with killing one guy and dying themselves it seems.

[Reaper90]

Ahhh excellent point here. It's tought to draw a definitive line, I think, don't you? I think there is a difference between turning away and avoiding a HO/collision.

Exactly.

[Shuffler]

I find the Shuffler's of the world will make their intentions known, albeit, very subtle.  And that's what you need to look for.  And no not always, I make the same sway move to see if I get a reaction.  Despite what Steve may think..... Aside from Newbs, who only have the ho as their ACM, NOBODY enjoys ho'ing.  Even if you win, odds are your shot up pretty good.  So where do you go from there?