Wirbelwind is no longer any fun...

[Babalonian]

I think that was for non-combat situations. I don't think you should force pilots of P-51s to overhaul their own engines, too, while you're at it? Reloading was a combat limitation, barrel changes? Ehhh.. not so much.


P.S. The ammo boxes contained 20 rounds only. You could fire all 4 guns but only for 20 rounds. In WW2 they didn't spray nonstop streams at planes like they do here. They also weren't so invisible as they are in here.


IMO the wirble needs a heavy perk. Then they need to introduce the 4x20mm flak halftrack. Same gun but open turret, minimal armor. Even MGs could take it out. THAT and the M16 should be unperked.. possible leave the Osty unperked as an inbetween step from the halftracks to the Wirb. Maybe?

THIS is what Aces High should have modeled instead of the wirble: The SdfKz 7.

It was THE workhorse of the German army. Over 5000 produced and saw service in every part of the war. Loaded out in many quite common variants, it carried a 37mm like the ostwind:

(Image removed from quote.)(note those sides on the flatbed are laid flat for operational use)

It towed 88mm:

(Image removed from quote.)

It had quad 20mm like our wirb:

(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)


If we had the firepower with a much softer (and let's be honest, more representative) target, it would be a better tradeoff. Then the armored tank-chassis osty and wirb could be perked.

This is one of your arguements that I must admit makes really good sense, maybe even the most.  I've heard you make it before, I hope it doesn't get overlooked and even comes standard with a Krusty-meter someday.

[Babalonian]

Next subject Wirbelwind gun sights.  

<snip>

(Image removed from quote.)

Oh & just take note of the above page & read the part about aiming range & elevation.











HTC Wirbel only has +90 deg not the +100 deg listed.

Great post(s).  If I understand correctly, the AH WW only has 90 degrees elevation instead of the 110 degrees as presented (a range from -10 to +100 = 110 degree range of motion).

The Osti though you are correct, with a range from -10 to +90, that's 100 total.

I would assume HTCs modeled the sight with a missinterpretation on someone's end somewhere, given the standard they try and hold up to.

[lyric1]

They then made alterations to the production models & one of those was a slight change to the exterior,front,bottom portion of the turret. They added a couple of protrusions to deflect bullets away from the top of the tank as small arms fire was causing damage to the bearing surface that the turret needed to rotate.
 

Picture of production a Ostwind with the modification to the turret.







AHII must be the prototype Ostwind as only it had this style of turret below.

[kvuo75]

"we have wirbles... someone put out supplies!"

 

[lyric1]

Wirbelwind Ammunition?

I think that in AHII we only have HE rounds?
It seems based off of what was available they had a choice of a number of shells to choose from.



It would be nice to have some AP as well to deal with some of the ground vehicles that run out to meet you in game. I have not found what type of load out options were typical for the Wirbelwind & none of the books say much about that. Since they did use them in the ground roll a fair bit I think they would change over to an AP load if needed.

Seems they did have some success in real life as well.

[lyric1]

It would be even better if HTC would model it closer to its actual capabilities. The real Wirblewind couldn't fire a continuous stream from all four guns due to how they were loaded. The closest they could get was to alternate pairs (fire one pair while the other pair is reloaded).

And TBH it should apply to ALL guns (bomber guns included) that were reloaded in a similar fashion.

Quick video of an approximate time of changing out a magazine.
In combat I would think it may be a little faster than what is done here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=ugZhqz4AQUk&NR=1

[Megalodon]

Quick video of an approximate time of changing out a magazine.
In combat I would think it may be a little faster than what is done here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=ugZhqz4AQUk&NR=1

showing that the barrels were changed out during battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEItGE0SqCE

[bustr]

Leave the wirble in peace. Nerfed the derned things still beat my IL2 and Ju87-G2 70% of the time no matter how I shoot at them.

[lyric1]

Ostwind ammunition?

Unfortunately not a lot of info on the types loaded & no glossy picture like the Wirbel ammo in my other post.

How ever there is a difference on what amount is loaded & what the few books I have say about quantity.

AHII Ostwind has 1000 rounds & I assume they are all HE.

Panzer tracts#12 lists 400 rounds.


http://www.librarything.com/work/3186142




Nuts & bolts volume 25 lists 400 rounds also.
http://www.michtoy.com/item-DSK-NB25-Nuts_and_Bolts_Vol._25__German_Flakpanzer_IV_Wirbelwind,_Ostwind_and_Kugelblitz.html



Why the big variation between AHII & these two books I have no idea.

Even the captured Mobelwagen documentation lists 400 rounds & this early version of this flack has the same chassis & the same gun as the Ostwind.

With one difference this lists 80 AP rounds as well as 320 HE rounds,this makes sense that they carried AP since this early flack gun was used in ground warfare as well as aircraft like the Wirbel & Ostwind.



I would say we are carrying to much ammo on the AHII Ostwind & most likely should have AP rounds as well.

[SkyRock]

THey mention the ground ammo in this video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=tcI0kuARYSk&feature=fvwp

[Noir]

40mm AP but less total ammo? I'd take it.

the ostwind would see a boost in usage despite having less ammo, just for those situations where you expect a mix of nmy planes and gvs

[Babalonian]

40mm AP but less total ammo? I'd take it.

the ostwind would see a boost in usage despite having less ammo, just for those situations where you expect a mix of nmy planes and gvs

I would love a mixed ostwind loadout, HE heavy idealy, go backup town destruction missions with some AAA protection.

[lyric1]

Turret rotation speed?

Saved this one for last but in fact it was the first thing I started looking in to with the Wirbel & Osti.
This has been the biggest gripe I hear all the time while in game & on the BBS from time to time.

HTC neutered the Wirbel.
So was it right or wrong the slowing down of the rotation speed? First off as I stated in this thread that I have hijacked that I believe HTC slowed down the turret due to the information in this book.

http://militarymodels.co.nz/2010/06/05/book-review-nuts-bolts-vol-13-flakpanzer-iv-wirbelwind-sd-kfz-1614-ostwind/

I have the later edition Vol25.
So lets see what it says on this topic.



OK so what is the 2 CM Flakvierling mentioned above?
It is of course a broad description of the 20MM gun used on Flak guns. The quad gun mount is the one in Wirbel & this is the Flackvierling 38 described in the Wiki link & picture below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Flak_30/38/Flakvierling




In this internal view of one of the only two surviving Wirbelwind's left it shows & describes the two controls that move the gun & turret about.



A little more about the traverse from nuts & bolts Vol 25.






So who is Count von Seherr-Thoss mentioned above?

He was the technical director of Ostbau-Sagan which actually built the vehicles. A man I would say that would most likely would know without question about his tanks.
 
http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/german/nb13.htm




So no auto rotation that can give you 360 degrees in 6 seconds. They had to hand crank it at about at 13.3333 seconds per 360 degrees.     

Or did they?

Dug a little deeper & found this book on line.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/113790510/1982-Gepard-The-History-of-German-Anti-Aircraft-Tanks

Bottom of page #93 & on to page #94.



There is also a few other comments about drive mechanisms throughout the Wirbel & Ostwind information of this book.

This book is a game changer if correct it implies that later they added the automatic drive.
So what book is correct?
Will let the debate begin & post my thoughts & findings later.

[lyric1]

Just about anything you want to know about the gun used in the Wirbelwind.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/104636119/TME9-228-2cm-Flakvierling-38-German-20mm-Antiaircraft-Gun-Four-Barreled-Mount-1943

I thought that this platform may have had two speeds for traversing low & a high gear & it did this document shows how they changed gears. Some very detailed drawings & explanations of the functioning of the weapon.

[Changeup]

Just got two kills in one. No more whipping that turret around. 

I've flown by those things at 400 mph only have them track me. I think its a great change!

They can still track you if the person in them knows what they're doing (READ:  Waystin2 never stops moving and uses the steering to help his turret move quicker.  He will kill you at all speeds)