Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38

[Nashwan]

Jochen, you will find very few combats during the BoB where the RAF weren't outnumber locally.
The usual RAF tactic was to send one or 2 squadrons against a raid, which would be escorted by large numbers of German fighters.
The fact is during the BoB the Luftwaffe came up against an enemy that was well equipped and led for the first time. Despite their numerical superiority, and the fact that most of their fighters were superior to most of the British fighters, they still lost.
Don't use the range argument either. During the early stages, when the fighting was mainly over the channel, the Luftwaffe suffered an even worse ratio than for the rest of the battle.
The fact is some Luftwaffe pilots were good at running up large scores, but the Luftwaffe as a whole rarely acomplished the goals that were set out for it. In the desert they were supposed to support Rommels army. Of all Marseille's 150+ kils only 4 were bombers. That shows a man who wasn't doing his job properly. During the BoB the RAF pilots were ordered to concentrate on the bombers and to a large extent they did. They made it too expensive for the Germans to keep bombing Britain.
Dieppe is often mentioned as a stunning victory for the Luftwaffe. They achieved about a 2 -1 kill ratio over the RAF. However, despite their superior aircraft (190s against Spit V) they failed again in their primary misson of attacking the ground and naval forces. Only 1 British ship was damaged  by a near miss.
When the Luftwaffe was tasked with neutralising Malta they failed. When they had to combat the US bombers in their raids over Germany they failed again. All the factors you state caused them to lose the BoB were in their favour. They were fighting over friendly territory, with the benifits of radar coverage, and no range problem. They still lost.

[F4UDOA]

<S> Widewing,

I am repeating what Westy said, but you hit it on the head like I never could.

Jochen,

Before you call my statement roadkill, please clarify. Was the Luftwaffe out numbered during the BoB or was it the British radar that acted as a force multiplier.

Do you know how few A/C the Brits actually had after Dunkirk? Do you doubt that they were Hurricanes doing most of the damage? The Germans had the experiance of fighting in Poland, Spain, France and the British had none. What am I saying that is roadkill? Why do you feel necessary to apolgize for the Luftwaffe?

I get the feeling that the new plane set is setting the stage for a historic arena. Now that the Luftwables have the dora, F8 and TA-152 there is nothing else to whine about. Let's do it!!

[Dune]

Actually, that was my mistype, Preddy did fly with the 9th FS, not the 7th.

BTW, I doubt Noah and Sox missed too many in their book.

------------------
Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

[Daff]

During most of '43 a typical FG would consist of 36 planes. (12 in each squadron)..this was later to 48.
 They would normally send out 3 FG's on a ramrod. One for penetration escort, another to relieve those and yet another for reception escort.
The escorts would be assigned positions around the bombers, split up into squadrons, often outside visual range of eachother.
Later on, when the bombers were sent in in "streams", escorts would again have fixed positions on that stream, or covering  a specific area on the route, again split into squadrons.
 The LW, on the other hand, usually concentrated all their fighters on one section of the stream, usually leaving the escorts outnumbered 4:1, often way more than that...even in late '44 the LW would locally outnumber the allieds.
 Add to that, that it wasnt until early '44 that the allieds were allowed to chase the LW when they broke off and I dont really see it as being very impressive.
It only took the 56th FG 6 months to achieve a 2:1 win/loss ratio and this was pilots without any previous combat experience, in a unproven plane, fighting over enemy territory against a way more experienced enemy, fighting over home ground.
 While I happily agree that attrition (on all fronts) was a major factor, it still doesnt explain the success of FG's like the 4th, 56th,and 78th, who baned the way for the US bomberforces in early/mid '43...and numbers was certainly in the LW favour.

Daff

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[Nath-BDP]

 

You remember the 49th, they shot down 668 enemy aircraft, the third highest total for any Fighter Group in any theater.

Wow and JG 52 and 54 were resposible for over 20,000 kills.

 

To be flying F4Fs, Preddy would have had to be in the Navy or Marine Corps. Since he was in the AAF, we can discount Wildcats. Preddy was assigned to the 49th Fighter Group. You remember the 49th, they shot down 668 enemy aircraft, the third highest total for any Fighter Group in any theater. Preddy scored exactly zero while he was with the the 9th Fighter Squadron. He was seriously injured when he dove into John Sauber's P-40, killing Sauber. Preddy was with the squadron for 5 months prior to his accident.

John Landers scored 6 kills (two of which are disputed to this day) while with the 49th FG. Coming to the ETO he claimed another 8.5 and 20 claimed destroyed on the ground, which do not count towards his total.

thanks for the info, you just proved first statement about them inconclusive.

 

Now, as to your whining about being out-numbered. You ignore the fact that there were just two fighter groups which flew all of the missions into Germany between October 1943 and the end of the year. These units flew the P-38H and J, and every mission found them, frequently with less than 40 total fighters, engaging as many as 300 German fighters. It was not the Luftwaffe who was out-numbered in those days. Moreover, the Luftwaffe did not ignore the P-38s. On the contrary, they did everything possible to disrupt their formations. Arthur Heiden has said that he cannot recall a single mission in where his squadron was not bounced by German fighters. That is until Doolittle authorized Kepner to go after the Luftwaffe, rather than defend the bombers. It was at this point that the Luftwaffe's fate was sealed.

Forgetting about the RAF now are we? tsk tsk...

The P38s during this time took very high losses, in November alone they lost 17 aircraft and shot down 23 German aircraft. The Germans at this time had no idea that the Allies had an escort that could stay with the bombers that deep into Germany and were caught unaware on several occasions.

NEVER were there 300 German aircraft in the air at one time.

 

The whole argument about the Luftwaffe being overwhelmed by sheer numbers is a red herring. The Luftwaffe was overwhelmed by technology, traing and tactics. This technology created fighter aircraft with the range to cover every airfield in Germany, from bases 500 miles away. This technology produced a whole host of fighter aircraft that were equal or superior to what Germany was able to field. This technology produced the bombers that pounded German industry and cities into ruin.

If you can't admit that it was numbers that overwhelmed the LW then you're in a deep state of denial. It is common knowledge that this was a fact. Look at the numbers I posted above, the LW only had 84 190's operational on the Western front in May 1944, and the Allies had 5x that many. It was numbers that eventually wore the LW down.

Sure they "pounded" German cities and industry into ruin--yet the strategic bombing campaign never accomplished what it was set out to accomplish. Germany produced 20,295 190s 109s and 301 Me 262s in 1944 alone--at the height of the bombing offensive, that is quite an amazing feat for a industrial developed country.

In the end it was lack of fuel, green pilots and overwhelming numbers that defeated the LW. I'm speaking the truth here, not apologizing for anyone or thing.


 

Where was German technology? Wasted on weapons that were useless within the scope of the war. Why is it that Germany could not train enough pilots? Why is it that the obsolecent Bf 109 continued in production long after it had reached the limits of development? We could go on ad nauseum.

The later model Bf 109s (G-10, K-4 ectera) were (in my opinion) superior to anything the Allies had, the 190D series was also superior to most in different aspects. Also remember that German technology was far ahead of the Allies. Had it not been for the Germans development with revolutionary designs and technology of the Me 262 and other designs and weapons the Western world would have been behind 5-10 years in aviation tech, not to mention space travel.

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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
 

A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-05-2001).]

[eddiek]

posted by Nath-BDP:  "Sure they "pounded" German cities and industry into ruin--yet the strategic bombing campaign never accomplished what it was set out to accomplish. Germany produced 20,295 190s 109s and 301 Me 262s in 1944 alone--at the height of the bombing offensive, that is quite an amazing feat for a industrial developed country."


How many of those planes, tanks, and other war material was produced by the slave laborers in Nazi captivity?
Sometimes, people forget at what price Germany gained this technological "edge".
Total disregard for human life other than their own, willing to use other human beings as guinea pigs to "further" their sciences and help insure the survival of their pilots and soldiers.......forcing POW's or simple civilians to do their bidding in an effort to prolong the war......
And lest anyone forget, Germany started the whole darned thing we call the Second World War, so no sympathy is warranted over them being "outnumbered", even if it were true.  Hitler, and, yes, the German people, got what they had coming when they embarked on their road of aggression.
Yup, plenty to be proud of there if you are a fan of the German war machine.

[Nath-BDP]

Ah, lest not forget about the segregation on U.S. soil.

Let us also not forget about Unit 741 that were experimenting biological weapons and different epidemics on Chinese civilians in Machuria and were resposible for horrenous treatment of Chinese civilians in containment, they were considered 'logs' by the Japanese. At the end of the war when the U.S. found out about this, we let their scientists go without a trial for war crimes--just because they were willing to give us all their information on the tests they did. WTG America...

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Westy]

 Nath, you really sound like you're quoting numbers out of books and not really having a debate.

 At least put some of the numbers in context and stay within the discussion a little. The P-38 and the USAAF groups's all flew on the western front. Eastern front numbers meant nothing at this point.
 

 And every time you mention raw numbers you remind me of how pathetically stupid and stark raving mad the Germans nation was to get into a mult-front war in the first place. Western front, Eastern front, Afrika, all the occupied teritory like Norway, Greece and all the material and men that went onto thier Uboats and still born Navy.
 
 Who do we blame for entering a ten on one "dogfight" here? The idiot who is the "one"

 Same thing with Germany and Japan.

 -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Nath-BDP]

Ah, heres westy, popping into a thread to make some stupid inane comment to make himself feel better.

[eddiek]

Never said there were not segregation problems in the US, but America did not stoop to genocide, unlike Hitler and the Fatherland.  Some of the things that happened here in the States make ya sick when ya see them, the Americans of Japanese descent losing their businesses and homes, taken to camps......was a toejamty way to treat people who had come here to make their way in life, and loved the US.
As for Westy popping in, he, like Widewing, hit the nail on the head again.  For all their supposed superiority, being the "master race" and all, holding these amazing leads in the fields of technology, they did not have the foresight to realize that sooner or later, they were gonna pick on the wrong country, or that the world was not going to stand by and allow them to run over Europe just because Hitler said it was their right and their destiny.  If they were so superior, they would have recognized the guy for what he was and what he represented, and never let him come to power.
The technological leads you refer to can be explained also.  Hitler was preparing Germany for war years before the Americans and British.  When the war began, Germany truly did have the most advanced fighters in the world.  At that time, what did America have?  The P-26 Peashooter, the P-36?  Even in 1941, the American front line fighters were the P-40 and F4F; some say both were almost obsolete by the time the US got dragged into the war.
From Dec 1941, to May 1945, the US went from the asthmatic P-40's to the P-38, P-47, P-51, F4U, F6F, etc, each more than capable of meeting the Axis on equal terms.  And they did so while not only producing war material for themselves, they produced a significant percentage of the total equipment used by the Allies during the course of the conflict.
And the workers making the equipment got paid wages for their jobs, not marched back to the camps and forgotten til they were needed the next day.
Blaming the loss of the war on being "outnumbered"........just another admission of stupidity on the part of those who admire the brutalities of the Nazi regime.

[Nath-BDP]

Westy's first post, the one I responded to, read just:

Nath, you really sound like you're quoting numbers out of books and not really having a debate.

--The he (obviously) edited it.

The only thing I'm proving is that numbers is what beat the LW, I'm not defending hitler, the nazis, nor am I saying anything about the ost front.


[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-05-2001).]

[Westy]

 No kidding I edited and did emmediatley after submitting the post as I wasn't done.

 And from your retort I see I hit on target.

 -Westy

[Widewing]

I wrote a 2,000 word reply that disassembled your entire argument. Then, when I hit submit, that useless sack of toejam called Internet Explorer crashed, losing the entire post. Since I have already wasted two hours,
I can't see investing any further time disputing your disinformed and glib reply.

Furthermore, after reviewing your further posts that followed, I realize that you have no interest in seriously discussing any issue that is at odds with your view. In other words, you are one of those people that refuses to be confused by the facts after you've made up your mind. You don't debate, you generate sound-bites. Essentially, trolling is your specialty. The fact that you rationalize the murdering Nazi horde by pointing to U.S. race relations, leads me to conclude that you must a 'true believer'. What's next? There wasn't a holocaust either?

Well, in light of this and the fact that I have wasted enough valuable time, and the pressing need to get some real work done, I will not bother offering you the education you so badly need.

My regards,

Widewing

[Nath-BDP]

I understand that you realize you're wrong.

Bye.

[Nath-BDP]

.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-05-2001).]