Author Topic: Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38  (Read 7142 times)

Offline Widewing

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2001, 10:12:00 PM »
Nath,

Kindly forgive me for my last, remarkably arrogant post. I was taking out my fury for losing two hours of work on you, and I was completely unfair and unjustified in my comments. I apologize.

When I calm down a bit, and have some spare time (perhaps tomorrow), I will reconstruct what was lost.

In the meanwhile, please except my apology and try to understand that cranky old bastards like myself sometimes behave in a most undignified manner.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Jochen

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2001, 03:39:00 AM »
 
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Before you call my statement roadkill, please clarify. Was the Luftwaffe out numbered during the BoB or was it the British radar that acted as a force multiplier.

Do you know how few A/C the Brits actually had after Dunkirk? Do you doubt that they were Hurricanes doing most of the damage? The Germans had the experiance of fighting in Poland, Spain, France and the British had none.

Those are all quite well known facts and I'm not saying or have said anything about them.

 
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What am I saying that is roadkill?

The roadkille part was your claim that Luftwaffe had all advantages and still they couldnt win. roadkille I say. British had radar which helped directing air battle and gave early warning of incoming raids and when RAF pilots was shot down he usually dropped to friendly soil and was able to continue fight unlike lufwaffe pilot who got shot down over england. This is of course advantage or do you disagree.

So, on contrary to your claim, Lufwaffe didn't have all the advantages.

 
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Why do you feel necessary to apolgize for the Luftwaffe?

I apologize only for myself when I have been wrong. Why do you think I feel neccessary to apologize for Luftwaffe?

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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A[/b, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline Nashwan

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2001, 04:26:00 AM »
Jochen, the Luftwaffe had all those advantages in 1944, yet they still lost. Why?
They were outnumbered no worse that the RAF was during the BoB.

Offline Westy

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2001, 09:39:00 AM »
 Widewing, Nath is about 19 years old. That may help you understand (as I need to remind myself too today) that he may still be in that "I know it all" stage of life.

 Nath, that's not an age flame nor a dig at you in anyway. But at times it is good for folks older, such as myself, to remember where something is coming from.

 It still doesn't excuse your punk attitude nor wanton disregard for someone who's had years of learnign on these subjects. Anyone can rhetorically repeat words from a book. Why don;t you try wrting one from researched facts for a change. And research isn't just looking up the same facts and figures using someone elses bibliograph.

  -Westy
t


Offline Widewing

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2001, 10:57:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by Westy:
Widewing, Nath is about 19 years old. That may help you understand (as I need to remind myself too today) that he may still be in that "I know it all" stage of life.

I figured that he was very young. However, that still does not justify my hammering him like I did. You can never convince someone to consider another view by beating him over the head. Nothing prevents listening than an insult. The best way to change a person's understanding is to provide him with indisputable facts, and let those facts sink in.

Nath is a bright young man, he's capable of determining the truth, if he is presented that truth without brow-beating. I will rewrite the my lost response and let him decide for himself. There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline F4UDOA

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2001, 11:18:00 AM »
Jochen,

In your last post you said quote

 
Quote
The roadkille part was your claim that Luftwaffe had all advantages and still they couldnt win. roadkille I say. British had radar which helped directing air battle and gave early warning of incoming raids and when RAF pilots was shot down he usually dropped to friendly soil and was able to continue fight unlike lufwaffe pilot who got shot down over england. This is of course advantage or do you disagree.

So, on contrary to your claim, Lufwaffe didn't have all the advantages

In my first post I said quote

 
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The Germans had every possible advantage on there side except range and the fact that they were fighting over NME territory. And the Germans still could not win.


So I understand that fighting over your homefield is an advantage and so was the range of the Luftwaffe A/C. However the British radar capability was known to the Germans who spent quite a bit of time bombing those installations to no avail. But it does not change the course of events. A smaller force overcoming a greater force.

Remember it was the Germans who lived by the "Blitz attack" quite successfully against other countries with even larger defenses than England ie France. It was simply the case of the immovable object and the irresistible force. The problem is that as Widewing put it "there is an entire cult dedicated to apologizing for the failure of the Luftwaffe and the Nazi leadership ". This boggles the mind, and to see outrageous claims that the Luftwaffe was somehow overwhelmed from the start is ridiculous based on the BoB alone.

Here is another point to ponder.
 

In 1939-40 on the western front what Country or Countries even had 1,500 military A/C flying?? To claim that high of a number in the 21st century is a joke with the knowledge we have today of the over claiming.

Here is another bizarre statement.
 
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Wow and JG 52 and 54 were responsible for over 20,000 kills

How can anybody actually believe that?

Do you realize that is almost as many A/C claimed shot down than the US claimed in total for the entire war on both sides? And that is assuming that the US pilots didn't overclaim. It is a continuing propaganda machine that gets worse with time. In another 50 years they will be saying that they actually won the war.

Offline Sable

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2001, 01:10:00 PM »
Actually, if you look at sorties flown, rather then the actual number of planes, the Luftwaffe only had a very minor advantage in terms of fighter sorties during the BoB.  Something like 1.2 to 1.  Pre D-Day the allies had around a 2.5 to 1 advantage in fighter sorties.  After the spring and summer of '44 when the Luftwaffe was crushed, this rose to around 6 to 1.  This is just fighter sorties, and doesn't count bombers.  If you look at the Blitzkrieg in 1940, the germans had a 2 or 3 to 1 advantage in fighter sorties.  All this just goes to show that numbers are often an important factor.  

However, numbers aren't the only factor.  If you look at the RAF's daylight attacks during 1941 and 1942, they would often put up hundreds of fighters, and face maybe 50-100 sorties(or often less) in response.  However in these situations, the short ranged Spitfires weren't capable of inflicting the level of attrition on JG26 and JG2 that the 8th AF(and the 9th AF and 2nd TAF) were able to inflict on Luftflotte 3 and Luftflotte Reich in 1944.  In fact, despite their numerical superiority, the RAF suffered a negative kill/loss ratio in their daylight campaign even with their superior numbers, and this was without counting bomber losses.

So as we can see, a daylight bomber campaign required a number of factors working together.

#1: Equality or superiority in terms of fighter capability.  The LW had this in 1940, but without numbers or durable bombers they couldn't establish air superiority or maintain sustainable losses.

#2: Numerical superiority.  The RAF had this in 1941 and 1942 over France, but without enough quality fighters, or durable bombers they also couldn't produce any positive results, and took heavy losses.

#3: Durable heavy bombers.  Only the US possesed this quality, but even the bombers by themselves couldn't bring about a victory.  Witness the Schweinfurt raids in 1943 and you will see proof of this.  Without air superiority, even the most durable bombers took heavy losses.

So we can see, that in order to conduct a succesful daylight bomber campaign, all three of these factors had to be brought together.  One or two of them couldn't do the trick, and only the 8th AF was able to bring this together during WWII in the face of strong opposition(well I guess you could look at the pacific, but both the IJN and IJAAF were shattered forces by the time B-29s started bombing Japan).

Sable
352nd FG

 
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan:
Jochen, the Luftwaffe had all those advantages in 1944, yet they still lost. Why?
They were outnumbered no worse that the RAF was during the BoB.


Offline Dune

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2001, 01:26:00 PM »
Actually Sable, I think there may be one common factor in all those equations also.

The lack of a long-range fighter.

The LW was at the height of its effectiveness during the BoB, yet couldn't protect its bombers.  Why?  Well one main reason is that the 109's could spend so little time over London and then were forced to RTB.  The USAAF later found out how effective an un-escorted bomber is.  And that doesn't matter if its a B-17 being attacked by 190A8's or a Do-217 being attacked by Hurricane I's.

Since Spitfires couldn't reach into Germany (or deep into France for that matter) the RAF quickly switched to night bombing.  As did the LW, eventually.

In fact, had there been too many more Black Thursday's, the USAAF may have had to give up on daylight bombing.  Until the -47's got the extra tanks to get to the German border, more -38's showed up and the -51B arrived.

Take a look at my "Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Raid" post.  You'll notice how the -47 groups were responsible for Penetration and Withdrawal cover.  The same things they'd been responsible for since 43.  It wasn't until they had -38 and -51 Groups to cover over Berlin they tried the really huge raids.

And F4UDOA, if you look at the same thread, you'll see the LW overclaimed an average of 2x.  (Concerning the same battle, the USAAF overclaimed by 2.7.  But that includes the claims by buff gunners, and they overclaimed like wildmen)

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"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
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Nath-BDP

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2001, 03:54:00 PM »
 
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Widewing, Nath is about 19 years old. That may help you understand (as I need to remind myself too today) that he may still be in that "I know it all" stage of life.
Nath, that's not an age flame nor a dig at you in anyway. But at times it is good for folks older, such as myself, to remember where something is coming from.

I am 17.

 
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It still doesn't excuse your punk attitude nor wanton disregard for someone who's had years of learnign on these subjects. Anyone can rhetorically repeat words from a book. Why don;t you try wrting one from researched facts for a change. And research isn't just looking up the same facts and figures using someone elses bibliograph.

Hehehhe, i've been into WWII history since I was 10.   I've traveled to many WW II sites, including Duxford, Normandy, and various museums in the U.S.

Prove the things I have posted wrong and then perhaps I will take what you say into consideration. Because right now books are the only place I get my information from, I currently do not have the sources or contacts to get the true source of the information I am interested in or looking for. I could use some help. I am stating the facts westy, I don't see whats wrong with that, widewing is doing the exact same thing, even if I may disagree.

The only reason I'm here is to further my knowledge on the subject of WWII aviation, having this discussion with Widewing has made me search for information that I had no knowledge of previously and that I now know about.

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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
 

A captured Bolshevik pilot once stated, "In battle, the fighters with the green hearts are generally in the minority. But when they're there, things realy heat up. They're all aces!"

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-06-2001).]

Nath-BDP

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2001, 03:58:00 PM »
 
Quote
How can anybody actually believe that?

Do you realize that is almost as many A/C claimed shot down than the US claimed in total for the entire war on both sides? And that is assuming that the US pilots didn't overclaim. It is a continuing propaganda machine that gets worse with time. In another 50 years they will be saying that they actually won the war.

F4udoa, Germany had the most (if not the most) rigorous kill confirmation system in the world. All those are confirmed kills my friend, achieved from 1939 to 1945, the U.S. was only in the war for 3 1/2 years. Also you must remember that the German air forces were outnumbered, especially on the Eastern front, thus it was much easier for German pilots to rack up huge kill counts while for Allied pilots it took months to even see an enemy aircraft.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-06-2001).]

Offline flakbait

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Macky Steinhoff talks about the P-38
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2001, 04:30:00 PM »
Actually only about one half of all Allied pilots ever claimed so much as a share in a kill. I can't find the quote for the life of me, but I remember Mike Spick saying something along those lines in Luftwaffe Fighter Aces. Below is a link to a victory report someone posted on a good site:
 www.members.aol.com/dheitm8612/victory.htm


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