P-38 kill ratio...out of whack.

[Ack-Ack]

I don't mean to over emphasize the idea of some kind of flight model error. The real point of this post is to understand the tactic objectively to develop a counter.
 
   

The counter to the P-38 is to learn some skill.  Sounds like someone found themselves getting burned with a Rope-A-Dope.


ack-ack

[StokesAk]

 

[Ack-Ack]

So MJTalon are you a self professed good stick?  
Seriously, I assume you fly it regularly, Is this a favorite manuever? Do you use dual throttles? and does manipulating them independently help?  I can't seem to replicate this myself (I am a self professed non-good stick) but I only have a single throttle.

Duel throttles will not give someone an edge in the P-38, in other words, you will not win the fight because of duel throttles.  It does not 'increase' the maneuverability of the P-38 and is only useful in a few situations like pulling off really nice looking hammerheads, help recover in certain spin situations and it increases the immersion factor and that's pretty much it.


ack-ack

[CAP1]

The P-38J is racking up quite a kill ratio in the MA. In fact it is the highest non-perk plane in the MA.(see table below)  I did a little digging and discovered that a dozen or so pilots have kill ratios over 8:1 in this plane and fly it almost exlusively which is driving up it's kill ratio. I did this investigation because lately this historically average plane has been untouchable in 1 on 1s, and the deaths have all come via the same tactic on the part of the 38 driver, which is to pull the plane vertical, wait for the opponent to stall out, rudder/throttle over, dive and make the kill. What makes this so strange is the seemingly incredible ability of the 38 to climb vertically, and rudder over, regardless of e-state. On paper this plane has inferior power to weight, climb rate, and acceration numbers compared to most planes in the MA. Perhaps a dual throttle control can allow for rapid yaw compared to centerline powered aircraft that need to rely on rudder only (hence airspeed), but that doesn't explain the 38's seemingly exeptional vertical climb and stall performance. I suspect a cabal of 38 drivers have discovered something about the P-38 flight model that can be exploited in the MA and are utilizing it to rack up these lopsided kill ratios. We non-38 drivers owe it to ourselves to figure out what's up. I  would like to analyze this 38 manuever more objectively, and get the word out to all MA pilots the what-to-do's when a 38 pilots goes vertical. With a little collective wisdom maybe we can put these guys back in their historical place.
So I'm asking for anyone that wishes to participate, to film your missions and post any 38-goes-vertical-rudders-over-and-kills-me films you get. Then we can analyze e-state, relative speeds etc etc and see what's up.

I don't mean to over emphasize the idea of some kind of flight model error. The real point of this post is to understand the tactic objectively to develop a counter.
 
Plane Name      Kills   Deaths   Kill/Death Ratio     
Me 163B                   531   76   6.9     
Tempest                   3552   541   6.55     
Me 262         2233   370   6.02     
F4U-4         2307   911   2.53     
F4U-1C         4666   1962   2.38     
P-38J         6797   3805   1.79     
Typhoon IB      11265   7537   1.49     
Ta 152H                   1573   1098   1.43     
P-47-D11                   1004   708   1.42     
Ki-84-Ia         4649   3410   1.36     
Ki-61         1367   1056   1.29     
Fw 190D-9      7599   6002   1.27     
Bf 109K-4      5527   4343   1.27     
F4U-1A         6139   4902   1.25     
Spitfire Mk XIV      863   698   1.23     
A-20G         2600   2123   1.22     
Fw 190A-5      2625   2190   1.2     
P-51D         21910   18937   1.16     
P-47-D25                   953   821   1.16     
N1K2         9274   8046   1.15     
Hurricane Mk IIC                4572   3991   1.15     
Bf 109G-14      3243   2833   1.14     
C.205         2616   2305   1.13     
P-38G         651   600   1.08     
Spitfire Mk XVI      17799   16767   1.06     
La-7         6656   6264   1.06     
Fw 190A-8      7213   6912   1.04     
P-51B         2057   1977   1.04     
Bf 109G-6      1634   1572   1.04     
Spitfire Mk IX      5611   5527   1.02     
Yak-9U         3146   3074   1.02     
Il-2         8118   8128   1   

no. you did the investigation, because you lost a fight or 5 to a b-38 that you didn't think you should;ve lost. i'd guess that you mis-judged the 38's e-state, and tried to follow him up(most likely in a spit of some mark, or a hurri2), stalled, and he kilt ya as you wallowed in the stall, flopping around like a fish outta water.

 anyway......you are also wrong on all of the 38's kills coming from this tactic. even me, with my inferior skills in the 38, can score kills without having to rope someone.

 you'll also find that generally, there's 2 kinds of pile-its in the 38. those that can fly her amazingly well, and those that can't fly her in combat at all. you can tell the difference by the end of the very first turn in the fight.

 the 38 was an amazing aircraft in its time. it was fast, maneuverable, had excellent range.

 power to weight? think about the second part there.

[CAP1]

It's all about the blender man....

That and the SAPP only dot commands...

 

my favorite?


.cloak   

[Ack-Ack]

pfff, you just need to learn to counter the attack of a P-38.  Start fighting the SAPP tards and you will get better fighting them.

Hasn't worked for you has it?  

ack-ack

[CAP1]

So MJTalon are you a self professed good stick?  
Seriously, I assume you fly it regularly, Is this a favorite manuever? Do you use dual throttles? and does manipulating them independently help?  I can't seem to replicate this myself (I am a self professed non-good stick) but I only have a single throttle.

i use the rope you described sometimes. i do not use differential throttling. i tried it, and i can't make it work for me. i have heard others say it helps them though.

 the best way for you to learn about the 38(or any plane for that matter) is to learn to fight in it.

 be careful though.......she may make ya fall in love with her, and you'll not want to fly anything else. 

[MjTalon]

pfff, I just need to actually learn some evasive maneuvers learn to counter the attack of a P-38.  Start fighting the SAPP tards and you will get better fighting them.

fixed.
 

[CAP1]

I think most would agree that pulling vertical with a bandit on your tail is usually a rookie move that will get you killed. The first guy vertical will slow down first creating closure for the bandit. It's what makes the success of this move so unusual. I'm with VonMessa that many must be mis-judging the speed of the 38. but why do so many mis-judge the speed? granted it's a big plane, but more often than not, I'm using the distance in the plane Icon to judge whether I'm gaining or flling behind a bandit.

it's not misjudging speed. the 38 has 2 engines and 2 props to hang on.

 also, EVERY plane in the set can rope an opponent under the right conditions.

i've been roped by ponys, la's, 38's 47's 109's and others..........it is a very valid tactic. not a rookie move.

[BnZs]

From what I understand, the main contributor to the 38's troubles in the ETO was its pilots freezing their arse's off at high altitudes.  Even though it is just as cold at high altitudes in other parts of the world, the operational altitudes tended to be lower.

And mechanical difficulties, etc.

As I understand it, its only real problem doing "fighter stuff" was not being able to follow the Germans when they dove away from high alts.

[CAP1]

Noooo. 
I suck compared to the rest of the SAPP/ 80th/479th sticks. I'm a novice in their and my own eyes. Check with Guppy, Ack, Shuffler, Del, etc.

not compared to me ya don't.  

[CAP1]

Vink, there is no "secret" technique to the thing. Just good pilots taking advantage of its strengths.

this is the key to virtually every plane in the set.

[MjTalon]

CAP I'm terrible bro. Honestly! 

[MjTalon]

Just dug through my folder, here's a brief film of me being outnumbered when my wingman went down:

http://www.mediafire.com/?wzmyjw4ltuz

I died but it shows that the 38 can be handled down low and slow for such a big aircraft.

[Ack-Ack]

Lusche, I get that. but this is less about good sticks, as it is about good sticks using a the same move over and over. Well it seems to me, because that's how I keep getting whacked. So I'm posting this to see if others experiencing same one trick death, or I'm the only guy who can't figure out how not get roped by a good 38 pilot.

I get that complaint a lot from players I shoot down and the honest answer is because that's all it took to shoot them down.  Why dazzle the other guy with complex maneuvers when it only takes a simple and basic tactic to shoot them down?  It's also a very fatal mistake on yours and other player's if they think that the Rope-A-Dope is the only maneuver us veteran pilots know.

ack-ack