Author Topic: Available WEP time  (Read 1394 times)

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2001, 02:13:00 PM »
Dude,

You are full of good information.

Every once in while someone post something really bright and informative. I usually save the post as a text file in my documents collection. Usually it's Wells, Andy Bush or Badboy. I certainly will save this one. It fills in a lot of gaps for me.

I always wondered why more PW-R2800 aren't used at Reno and tuned for higher HP. The RR engines are putting out 4,000HP these days so I figured a PW should be able to do at least as much. It seems to me that they would have to rebuild one from scratch if it were to be raced all out. Very expensive I guess.

Has the liquid cooled technology surpassed the Air cooled by that much? Is anybody still doing research into improving large displacement Air cooled engines? I'd like to see what a R2800 could do if it were built completely of forged parts. Why is it so easy to modify a liquid cooled RR anyway?? They seem more fragile to begin with.

Thanks
F4UDOA

[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 02-08-2001).]

Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2001, 02:21:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Dude,

You are full of good information...

Thanks
F4UDOA

Your welcome. I can see that one of the advantages of getting older and doing the different things I've done is acquiring a lot of varied information. I got a lot more engine info if you ever need it and I know LOT'S of motor heads. I was a diesel mechanic and went on to get my BS in Mechanical Engineering. Hot rods and engines are my 1st love. Planes are second and steam locomotives hold a strange sacred spot in my hart.   I didn't want to beat you up with a to much stuff. I hope I didn't bore you to much.  


Offline Lephturn

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« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2001, 02:27:00 PM »

Solid roller lifters make a big difference for the V8's.  Even still, the first point of failure in most high performance V8's in terms of high RPM is the valve train.

Back when I was racing an oval track pro-stock, we had a V8 with solid roller lifters and a pretty high-tech valve train.  We ran it at 7,200 RPM.  And that was run for hours per race, 100-300 laps of a 1/4-1/2 mile ovals.  We'd re-build it once about 1/2 way through the year, but that's it.

Most of the race engines that "throw a rod", do so when the valve train fails and drops a lifter onto a piston.  It was pretty rare to see one go from bearing failure, and that was normally from oiling system problems or poor assembly conditions.

Forumula 1 engines are up to like 14 or 16 THOUSAND RPM.  Wow.  I don't even thing some of those use a "cam shaft".  I think they are using electronic valve trains in them.  Scary!

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Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2001, 03:19:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Lephturn:

...Even still, the first point of failure in most high performance V8's in terms of high RPM is the valve train...

Yes your right. The piston speed formula is actually a rule of thumb and not an engineering law. It really takes into account a lot of things. It's an easy way to explain a basic limitation of engine rpm without going to deep into valve train dynamics. It's like saying that if I get a steel crank and rods and the valve train to match I can turn 10,000rpm but with a cast crank and rods I can have the best valve train in the world and never turn more than 6,000rpm. As a I said above in the end the biggest reason you don't see Pontiac (50's-70's) engines out there tearing up the track like Chevy's is a weak valve train. Actually a weak block in the lifter galley area. You can over come the oiling problems in the Pontiac's but the block design limits you in the end unless you get an SD455. So the block design can also be a big factor. When you buy a races prepped short block there is a lot of over building already in it. It was all of the mistakes of the past that got it there. So all you have to worry about as a racer is how much money do you have to make power with this block. That is directly related to the cam and valve train and cylinder heads. Of course if your doing all your own machine work you have to look at everything.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-08-2001).]

Offline C_R_Caldwell

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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2001, 06:02:00 PM »
As for LW a/c which could use MW-50 water-methanol injection such as the 109G-6 & G-10 (just 2 mention 2 109's) & the Fw 190A-5 & A-8 (just 2 name 2), a maximum period of 10 mins of boost could be used at any one time, and a period of 5 mins had to elapse before boost could be applied again.Generally, MW-50 tank sizes allowd for up to 30-40mins (I have differing accounts)of boost.That's 3-4 periods of 10mins each with a minimum of 5 mins between .

Jochen, I understand that a large number of 190A-8's used their EXT tank for MW-50 instead of avgas.The oft-quoted A-8 max TAS of 408 mph takes into account MW-50 boost.Having looked at the AH performance chart for the A-8, it is obvious that EXT is used for fuel only (if I fly the 190 it is normally the A-5, so I had not even noticed).

One of the main differences between the A-7 & A-8 was the rear fuselage tank that could be used for either fuel or MW-50, and the snall disparity in max TAS between the 2 is based purely on the A-8 using MW-50.Without MW-50, there would be almost no difference between the 2.

Should AH's 190A-8 be modelled with the EXT tank using MW-50 instead of fuel?I think we should be given the choice.A significant number of A-8's used the EXT tank for MW-50.I have read different opinions from different historians, but when you consider that most A-8's used an external drop-tank, and that the EXT tank was relatively small, it makes sense that many units would have preferred to use it for MW-50 rather than avgas.

After all, the bloated A-8 often needed as much of a performance boost as possible, and as most A-8's carried a DT, what makes more sense - using the EXT tank for a small amount of extra fuel, or use MW-50 to get a performance boost? If the rear tank is already there and is going to be used, there is an equal weight penalty in using either fuel or MW-50 in the EXT tank.

That being the case, I think we should have the hangar option of using fuel or MW-50 in the A-8's EXT tank.As for the A-5, I understand both the A-4 & A-5 both used MW-50 exclusively in their rear tank.

For those who don't know how MW-50 worked, here is an explanation of how it worked in the 109 models from the G-6 to the K-4.This info can be also used when referring to the Fw 190 :

The water-methanol mixture was injected into the supercharger below the powerplant's rated altitude, acting as an anti-detonant. Boost pressure from the supercharger was utilised to apply pressure to the 25 Imp. Gal MW-50 tank, forcing the mixture along a small pipe to an injection nozzle in the eye of the supercharger.The flow of MW-50 mixture was controlled by a solenoid valve activated by an automatic throttle switch & a master switch in the cockpit, and a 4% increase in power could be obtained, even at constant boost pressure.In the DB605AM powerplant used in the G-6 & G-14, fuel was consumed at 106 Imp. gal. per hour at take-off , but when using MW-50 with higher boost pressure , fuel consumption climbed to 141 Imp. gal. per hour. So extended use of MW-50 reduced range considerably, as well as having disastrous effects on the engine's spark-plugs, but this was generally regarded as a relatively small price to pay in return for increased performance - in the G-6's & G-14's using the DB 605AM, MW-50 boosted take-off power from 1,475 hp to 1,800 hp.

As a final note, the RLM realised that MW-50 boosting was not as efficient as improved supercharging (though improved supercharging AND MW-50 could be most beneficial), and as a result, emphasis was put on building a DB 605 powerplant with increased supercharging, which resulted in the DB 605AS engine being produced which was essentially a DB 605A using the DB 603's larger supercharger.The DB 605D was, to be simplistic, an enhanced version of the DB 605AS, utilising the same larger blower from the DB 603 with some ofther enhancements.


[This message has been edited by C_R_Caldwell (edited 02-09-2001).]

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2001, 06:16:00 PM »
Worth noting is that we have very reduced range in the MA, and the wep thingy might be a gameplay issue.



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Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2001, 08:14:00 PM »
Good info C_R_Caldwell thx.

Offline bolillo_loco

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« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2001, 01:33:00 AM »
F4U, I would imagine one reason you do not see too many hot rod radial engine planes at reno with a R-2800 is cause they seem to put R-3350 or R-4360s in them. I do not know very much about this race plane stuff, but as a general rule, bigger is usually better.

Offline Jochen

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« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2001, 04:35:00 AM »
 
Quote
Ab Baureihe A-8 kann hinter Spant 8 entweder ein GM-1-Behaelter (85 Liter Inhalt) oder ein Zusatzkraftstoffbehaelter (115 Liter Inhalt) eingebaut werden.

Which means in english something like?

I think it says that either 85 l of GM 1 could be stored or 115 l of MW 50 boost liquid (or fuel)

Since the volumes are different it means that GM 1 stuff was not stored in ordinary MW 50 or fuel tank.

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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline danish

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« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2001, 05:18:00 AM »
Right Jochen ;=)


danish

Offline Jimdandy

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« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2001, 08:23:00 AM »
As stated above the reason they limit the WEP bursts to an average of 5 minute intervals on these planes is the engine design. The inability for the internal parts of the engine to stand the higher cyclic loading for long periods of time. I don't know what they did to prep the rods in these engines. I'm guessing that they didn't polish and shot peen these rods in them because of the demands of mass production. There are a number of things that could be done to the internal components of these engines to increase there WEP times that just may not have been practical in mass production. Billet crankshafts, billet blocks, heads, rods, pistons. Sodium cooled valves, compression holes drilled from the top of the piston into the back of the compression ring groove to increase the seal of the compression ring. All of those things and more. All of those things would add a lot of machining time and material cost to the engines. They may have used some of the things I listed above on some of these engines. Generally the parts were castings and forgings I imagine with the least prep time passable.

PS I forgot a very important thing that limited the rpm ranges along with the materials used for the crank and rods. Back then they didn't have computer controlled machine tools so making a cam profile that was capable of supporting high rpm use was very hard. The acceleration and deceleration ramps and clearance ramps weren't as well profiled on those cams. For example if you were making a 1967 427cid ZL-1 Corvette engine today you would probably be able to get 30 more horse power out of the engine and have it be more "streetable" than the 1967 engine just do to better cam profiling because of computerized manufacturing.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-12-2001).]