Korea War - Plane set - New Arena?

[Westy]

If the Mig and Sabre were heavily perked than that would work to put the bulk
of the player base in the other rides for the most part.

 Also, how about we keep the color commentary concerning modern politics
to some other forum instead of trying to derail this discussion?

[Shuffler]

If the Mig and Sabre were heavily perked than that would work to put the bulk
of the player base in the other rides for the most part.

 Also, how about we keep the color commentary concerning modern politics
to some other forum instead of trying to derail this discussion?

Unfortunately they war and politics go hand in hand. That is why this is not a war game. It is Aces High a flight game for fighters.

The bulk of what wars are fought for are not allowed on these boards. 

[Boxboy]

Like all things if modeled correctly the Mig would out perform the Saber, with all the resulting screams about historic facts.

The real facts are, NEVER has any conflict pointed out "the pilot not the plane" like the Korean conflict.  When our guys ran into Russian pilots in those Migs they got a huge suprise.

[Shuffler]

Like all things if modeled correctly the Mig would out perform the Saber, with all the resulting screams about historic facts.

The real facts are, NEVER has any conflict pointed out "the pilot not the plane" like the Korean conflict.  When our guys ran into Russian pilots in those Migs they got a huge suprise.

Yup... like I always say..... learn your plane. We run into fights way more than the actual pilots in war so we have more training in those cartoon birds.

[Ack-Ack]

Like all things if modeled correctly the Mig would out perform the Saber, with all the resulting screams about historic facts.

It would depend on which Sabre would be modeled.  The MiG 15 had a clear advantage over early model F-86s, in terms of rate of climb, and maneuverability and ceiling.  The Sabre's performance was better at lower altitudes.  When the "all flying" tail was introduced in the F-86E, the advantages the MiG had was narrowed and with the "6-3" wing introduced in the F-86F-30, the Sabre erased any advantages the MiG 15 had over it.

The real facts are, NEVER has any conflict pointed out "the pilot not the plane" like the Korean conflict.  When our guys ran into Russian pilots in those Migs they got a huge suprise.

Soviet and Chinese claims of shooting down over 600 Sabres is grossly exaggerated.  USAF records show that 224 Sabres were lost to all causes, including non-combat losses.  Also, many Sabres were lost due to enemy AA and not from A2A engagements.


ack-ack

[Boxboy]

It would depend on which Sabre would be modeled.  The MiG 15 had a clear advantage over early model F-86s, in terms of rate of climb, and maneuverability and ceiling.  The Sabre's performance was better at lower altitudes.  When the "all flying" tail was introduced in the F-86E, the advantages the MiG had was narrowed and with the "6-3" wing introduced in the F-86F-30, the Sabre erased any advantages the MiG 15 had over it.

Soviet and Chinese claims of shooting down over 600 Sabres is grossly exaggerated.  USAF records show that 224 Sabres were lost to all causes, including non-combat losses.  Also, many Sabres were lost due to enemy AA and not from A2A engagements.


ack-ack

So are you saying my statements are wrong or just flexing your web search knowledge?

[Westy]

"Unfortunately they war and politics go hand in hand"

 Well duh. Fundamentally war and politics do. However posting on current politics, as
was done by you and a couple of other posters,  is completely irrelevant to this online
game which is centered around air-combat from 50 plus yrs ago.  
(edited: solution came. "We also added a simple "ignore user" feature."  see ya.)   


 Leaving pilot skill out of it the equation (cause 80% of the MA fighter pilots do not
"know" their airplane) the Mig would definitely take any Sabre to task in a main arena
environment. Because main arena "fighter" behavior is mainly head-on joust fights and
twisty-turny gang bangs at 5k which all feed the Mig's strengths. Course some Sabre
"pilots" will cherry-pick kills by zipping those fights like they do now in WWII aircraft.
But ip higher and with boom & zoom tactics is where the Sabre would do much better.
 
 Since the MA is anything but historical it causes some to get histerical when things don't
play out like they did in the stories they read on Wikipedia or in their twenty pound Time
Life coffee table book on Korean war air combat.

[Ack-Ack]

So are you saying my statements are wrong or just flexing your web search knowledge?

Yes, I'm saying you're wrong.  One just needs to look as the USAF records to see that the Soviet and Chinese claims of shooting down over 600 Sabres during the Korean War was grossly exaggerated.

Also, if you had compared the MiG 15 to the various Sabre models that were built, you would see that the MiG 15's early advantage was erased as the Sabre was updated with the all flying tail and the 6-3 wing. 


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

But ip higher and with boom & zoom tactics is where the Sabre would do much better.

At higher altitudes, the MiG 15 would chew the Sabre up, at least the early Sabers.  The MiG 15 had a far superior climb rate and service ceiling.  MiG 15 would loiter above the Sabre, where the Sabre couldn't touch it and then they'd zoom down into the Sabre formation and zoom back up to their perch.  However, when the F-86F-30 came out with the redesigned 6-3 wing, the MiG 15 lost this advantage as the Sabre was now able to match the MiG 15 in climb rate, service ceiling and maneuverability. 


ack-ack

[Westy]

Ah, thanks for the correction.  I'd honestly not read up on any of this lately and was
going with what my memory (bad! memory. bad!)  I though the Mig was weaker up
at higher alts. 

Perk it more!

[Karnak]

I though the Mig was weaker up
at higher alts. 

Perk it more!

Neither the F-86 or MiG-15 could be perked without destroying the Korea era feel of the arena.

[Westy]

 If a historical feel is what is wanted then I imagine an UN vs Communist arena (cousin to the
current  AvA arena) would suffice.  Having different set-ups reflecting diff parst of that war_
er, conflict.   But your point about "feel" is kind of moot given that AH offers mainly a fantasy
style of game with the "MA." I mean there's nothing about the current MA that has any
kind of  WWII "feel" to it with Spitfires shooting down B-24's and P-51's dogfighting P-38s.

[Simaril]

Interesting discussion of the advantages between those fighters.

Might be worth considering the opinion of an icon in fighter theory - Col. John Boyd, who flew in the war and whose work in combat theory sprang directly from analyzing the wide difference in K/D seen (to the F-86s advantage).

He credited the hydraulic control assist of the F86, which allowed the US pilots to execute maneuvers far faster (especially at higher speeds) than the manually controlled Mig could. This allowed the Americans to go through the process of the OODA loop (Observing events/Orienting their significance in the combat situation/Deciding the next move/Acting to make the move a reality; repeat)more rapidly and gain advantage that way.

[Tumor]

no no no no no no.  There's LOTS of cool aircraft HTC could add to WWII yet.

[LLogann]

Punting a bad topic is........................... .................