Turning point of the War.

[Unit791]

Ummmmm no Germany definitely would have been massacred had they tried to just jump right over to Britain.
Furthermore Germany was never in a position to gain control of the air over Britain, even if they had continued to bomb RAF airfields, as the popular myth goes.

Are you serious? The B.E.F. in France and Belgium were crushed as if they were any other European nation; The Netherlands (Who lasted 8 days), The French (who lasted a month), the Belgians (who I believe lasted 28 days), and the Norwegians (who lasted roughly the same amount of time as the French).  The German blitz in Europe was unstoppable, do you really think the British, who had incredibly few tanks, could have fared very well against the Blitz attacks either?

[Motherland]

Are you serious? The B.E.F. in France and Belgium were crushed as if they were any other European nation; The Netherlands (Who lasted 8 days), The French (who lasted a month), the Belgians (who I believe lasted 28 days), and the Norwegians (who lasted roughly the same amount of time as the French).  The German blitz in Europe was unstoppable, do you really think the British, who had incredibly few tanks, could have fared very well against the Blitz attacks either?

Attacking Britain was such a different scenario that I don't even know why you brought up all else you did.
The Luftwaffe could not gain aerial superiority.
The RAF and RN would have massacred any invasion force.

[Unit791]

Oh please, the Royal Navy was at the mercy of the Kreigsmarine basically until 1943.

[fudgums]

Oh please, the Royal Navy was at the mercy of the Kreigsmarine basically until 1943.

[Motherland]

Oh please, the Royal Navy was at the mercy of the Kreigsmarine basically until 1943.

[Die Hard]

Contrary to the popular belief that the Kriegsmarine only attacked defenseless merchantmen during the war, they actually sunk a sizable portion of the Royal Navy in 1940-42 in the Atlantic and Mediterranean.

Allied warships sunk by the Kriegsmarine:

Aircraft Carriers
HMS Ark Royal     GB     13 Nov 1941
HMS Audacity     GB     22 Dec 1941
HMS Avenger     GB     15 Nov 1942
HMS Courageous     GB     17 Sep 1939
HMS Eagle     GB     11 Aug 1941
HMS Glorious     GB     8 June 1940
USS Block Island     US     29 May 1944
    
Battleships
HMS Barham     GB     25 Nov 1941
HMS Hood     GB     24 May 1941
HMS Royal Oak     GB     14 Oct 1939
    
Cruisers
HMAS Sydney     AU     19 Nov 1941
HMS Charybdis     GB     23 Oct 1943
HMS Dragon     GB     8 July 1944
HMS Dunedin     GB     24 Nov 1941
HMS Edinburgh     GB     2 May 1942
HMS Galatea     GB     14 Dec 1941
HMS Hermione     GB     16 June 1942
HMS Naiad     GB     11 Mar 1942
HMS Penelope     GB     18 Feb 1944
    
Destroyers
HMCS Athabascan     CA     29 Apr 1944
Deyatelnyy     SU     16 Jan 1945
HMS Acasta     GB     8 June 1940
HMS Achates     GB     31 Dec 1942
HMS Ardent     GB     8 June 1940
HMS Bath     GB     19 Aug 1941
HMS Belmont     GB     31 Jan 1942
HMS Beverly     GB     11 Apr 1943
HMS Blean     GB     11 Dec 1942
HMS Broadwater     GB     18 Oct 1941
HMS Cossack     GB     23 Oct 1941
HMS Daring     GB     18 Feb 1940
HMS Eskdale     GB     14 Apr 1943
HMS Exmoor     GB     25 Feb 1941
HMS Exmouth     GB     21 Jan 1940
HMS Firedrake     GB     16 Dec 1942
HMS Glowworm     GB     8 Apr 1940
HMS Grafton     GB     29 May 1940
HMS Gurkha     GB     17 Jan 1942
HMS Hardy     GB     10 Apr 1940
HMS Hardy     GB     30 Jan 1944
HMS Harvester     GB     11 Mar 1943
HMS Hasty     GB     15 June 1942
HMS Hunter     GB     10 Apr 1940
HMS Hurricane     GB     24 Dec 1943
HMS Isis     GB     20 July 1944
HMS Jaguar     GB     26 Mar 1942
HMS Laforey     GB     30 Mar 1944
HMS Lightning     GB     12 Mar 1943
HMS Limbourne     GB     23 Oct 1943
HMS Mahratta     GB     25 Feb 1944
HMS Martin     GB     10 Nov 1942
HMS Matabele     GB     17 Jan 1942
ORP Orkan     PL     8 Oct 1943
HMS Partridge     GB     18 Dec 1942
HMS Porcupine     GB     9 Dec 1942
HMS Puckeridge     GB     6 Sep 1943
HMS Quorn     GB     3 Aug 1944
HMS Somali     GB     20 Sep 1942
HMS Stanley     GB     19 Dec 1941
HMS Wakeful     GB     29 May 1940
HMS Warwick     GB     20 Feb 1944
HMS Veteran     GB     26 Sep 1942
HMS Whirlwind     GB     5 July 1940
HMS Vortigern     GB     15 Mar 1942
HNLMS Isaac Sweers     NL     13 Nov 1942
FNS La Combattante     FR     23 Feb 1945
HMCS Ottawa     CA     14 Sep 1942
Sevenner     NO     6 June 1944
FNS Sirocco     FR     31 May 1940
HMCS St. Croix     CA     20 Sep 1943
USS Borie     US     2 Nov 1943
USS Bristol     US     13 Oct 1943
USS Buck     US     9 Oct 1943
USS Fechteler     US     5 May 1944
USS Fiske     US     2 Aug 1944
USS Frederic C. Davis     US     24 Apr 1945
USS Leary     US     24 Dec 1943
USS Leopold     US     9 Mar 1944
USS Reuben James     US     31 Oct 1941
USS Rowan     US     10 Sep 1943

[Ack-Ack]

Are you serious? The B.E.F. in France and Belgium were crushed as if they were any other European nation; The Netherlands (Who lasted 8 days), The French (who lasted a month), the Belgians (who I believe lasted 28 days), and the Norwegians (who lasted roughly the same amount of time as the French).  The German blitz in Europe was unstoppable, do you really think the British, who had incredibly few tanks, could have fared very well against the Blitz attacks either?

The BEF wasn't crushed, it was able to withdraw the bulk of its forces from the mainland. 

The Germans needed tactical air superiority over the beaches, which it wasn't able to do. 

The Kriegsmarine also took a battering in the Norwegian Campaign, losing a sizable portion of their modern surface units, especially their destoyers.  The U-boats were not suited for warfare in the relatively shallow and restricted waters of the Channel.  The Kriegsmarine also allocated its remaining and larger modern surface ships to the North Sea in diversionary operations.  The British Home Fleet was large and powerful enough to stop any major German naval operation in the Channel.

The Germans also didn't have specialized landing craft and primarily had to rely on river barges to move troops across the Channel.  This alone led to a whole host of problems like not being able to move a sizable force of artillery or tanks.  It also meant that the crossing had to take place in good weather as river barges are not meant to be used in open sea.  The river barges would also be very slow, leaving them extremely vulnerable to attack.  There was also a severe lack of barges to move the troops and equipment, so much so that there was not even enough for a first wave, let alone a second one.  Without specialized landing craft the Germans would've had to immediately capture a port large enough to support the operation, which would have been extremely difficult or near impossible giving the amount of defenses the British had in the south eastern ports at the time.

There was also the problem of coordination and cooperation between the three branches of the German military.  Neither branch really cooperated or coordinated their plans and also very bad German military intelligence.

The British military did a wargame back in the 1970s using the plans created by the Germans for Operation Sea Lion and the plans for the defense of England.  The result was the Germans managed to create an invasion beach head by using a minefielf screen to shield the initial assault.  The Germans then got stopped at the GHQ Line by Home Guard troops and defensive emplacements.  This gave enough time for the regular British troops to form up.  The Royal Navy was then able to enter the Channel from Scapa Flow, isolate the invasion area by cutting off German supplies and reinforcements.  The now isolated German invasion forces, cut off from supplies and reinforcements now had to contend with regular British troops with armor and artillery were forced to surrender.

Basically, the Germans didn't have the necessary resources or experience to plan and pull off a successful invasion of England.  There is also the issue of whether or not the Germans really seriously intended to invade and occupy England.  In some circles, the thought is that it was just a ploy by Hitler to try and force the British into surrendering because he knew he didn't have the tools to do the job.


ack-ack

[Unit791]

The BEF wasn't crushed, it was able to withdraw the bulk of its forces from the mainland.  

The Germans needed tactical air superiority over the beaches, which it wasn't able to do.  

The Kriegsmarine also took a battering in the Norwegian Campaign, losing a sizable portion of their modern surface units, especially their destoyers.  The U-boats were not suited for warfare in the relatively shallow and restricted waters of the Channel.  The Kriegsmarine also allocated its remaining and larger modern surface ships to the North Sea in diversionary operations.  The British Home Fleet was large and powerful enough to stop any major German naval operation in the Channel.

The Germans also didn't have specialized landing craft and primarily had to rely on river barges to move troops across the Channel.  This alone led to a whole host of problems like not being able to move a sizable force of artillery or tanks.  It also meant that the crossing had to take place in good weather as river barges are not meant to be used in open sea.  The river barges would also be very slow, leaving them extremely vulnerable to attack.  There was also a severe lack of barges to move the troops and equipment, so much so that there was not even enough for a first wave, let alone a second one.  Without specialized landing craft the Germans would've had to immediately capture a port large enough to support the operation, which would have been extremely difficult or near impossible giving the amount of defenses the British had in the south eastern ports at the time.

There was also the problem of coordination and cooperation between the three branches of the German military.  Neither branch really cooperated or coordinated their plans and also very bad German military intelligence.

The British military did a wargame back in the 1970s using the plans created by the Germans for Operation Sea Lion and the plans for the defense of England.  The result was the Germans managed to create an invasion beach head by using a minefielf screen to shield the initial assault.  The Germans then got stopped at the GHQ Line by Home Guard troops and defensive emplacements.  This gave enough time for the regular British troops to form up.  The Royal Navy was then able to enter the Channel from Scapa Flow, isolate the invasion area by cutting off German supplies and reinforcements.  The now isolated German invasion forces, cut off from supplies and reinforcements now had to contend with regular British troops with armor and artillery were forced to surrender.

Basically, the Germans didn't have the necessary resources or experience to plan and pull off a successful invasion of England.  There is also the issue of whether or not the Germans really seriously intended to invade and occupy England.  In some circles, the thought is that it was just a ploy by Hitler to try and force the British into surrendering because he knew he didn't have the tools to do the job.


ack-ack

Good point.  But the Germans did have something called Fallshirjmager, but then again, they did loose pretty badly to the Dutch.  Buuuuut, had they mass-produced, and I MEAN MASS PRODUCED the 323-Gigant, they could have gotten at least a few tanks into the British Isles.

[Motherland]

They probably could have gotten a few tanks over, in the form of wreckage surrounded by the remains of an easy kill of an RAF pilot.

[Anaxogoras]

It's safe to say that any attempt to get large transport aircraft into the UK would have been done at night.

[Ack-Ack]

Good point.  But the Germans did have something called Fallshirjmager, but then again, they did loose pretty badly to the Dutch.  Buuuuut, had they mass-produced, and I MEAN MASS PRODUCED the 323-Gigant, they could have gotten at least a few tanks into the British Isles.

The Germans tried to resupply North Africa with the 323, you know what happened to the 20 of the 21 aircraft during one mission?  The RAF had a field day shooting them down along with the Bf 109 escorts.


ack-ack

[oakranger]

The Germans tried to resupply North Africa with the 323, you know what happened to the 20 of the 21 aircraft during one mission?  The RAF had a field day shooting them down along with the Bf 109 escorts.


ack-ack


Yea, i wonder what they where thinking at the time they where getting shot down.  Then again, i wonder if they got on ch200 and whine to the RAF about upping is spit to kill slow moving AC. 

[Ack-Ack]

Yea, i wonder what they where thinking at the time they where getting shot down.  Then again, i wonder if they got on ch200 and whine to the RAF about upping is spit to kill slow moving AC.

Or the German escorts screaming on Channel 200 how the timid RAF pilots wouldn't engage their fighters.


ack-ack

[Die Hard]

The Kriegsmarine also took a battering in the Norwegian Campaign, losing a sizable portion of their modern surface units...

During operation Weserübung the Kriegsmarine lost one heavy cruiser, two light cruisers, ten destroyers and four u-boats. The Royal Navy (and allied navies) lost one fleet carrier, two cruisers, nine destroyers and five submarines.

[Angus]

...and what does that make in percentages? And how many were sunk by subs?  And the Tonnage?
Anyway, the operation included lucky strikes on both sides. Warspite went ape on German Destroyers, while the biggest battlewagons in German service were lucky enough to catch an aircraft carrier with only 2 DD's as an escort, singing all 3. However, after that, both battlewagons had to go to port because of the damage inflicted on them.
Warspite's achivement was quite some. She and her destroyer escorts trapped 8 German destroyers and eliminated them all. I think without loss but I am not sure. One german Sub was thrown in as a bonus, Sunk by Warspite's Swordfish bipe.
Anyway, since this was a big chunk of the New Kriegsmarine (NB, much of the RN ships were WWI vintage), they basically could not face the RN in any numbers after that, but rely on hit & run instead, and run meaning...RUN. This is before Dunquerque. So, the Kriegsmarine was not that bad a threat during the channel retreat (that is the bigger ones, the E-boats were a pest), the LW was the one. Targets of dream, ships at anchor loading troops from small boats, and/or even docked ships.
Oh, by the way, the evacuation at Dunquerque took place while there was still fightin in and around Norway.
Getting to the point of the beginning of the BoB, it means that the Germans do not have enough strenght to carry on naval ops in daylight, nor enough strength in the air to make a proper umbrella. It was down to trying to tug troops at night, which is of course as short as possible in mid-june. They did have their paratroopers (although the driving person behind the application of the Paras was off, - severly wounded at the time). With paras they would probably have been able to seize some parts of England at night, but being totally cut off from a supply line they's be facing the fate of a "Bridge too far"....