Frame 1 Rules Clarification.......

[M36]

Ok, it's not that hard to understand this. 
Here is the rule verbatim, "All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule.

Lowzx14, I dont have any problems understanding this rule at all. Seems pretty black and white to me. First part" "they must be attacked with explosive ordinance (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Second part: "Simply starfing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule".  First part says bombs and rockets only, second part says no strafing.

It doesnt say you should attack "first" with rockets or bombs and it doesnt say you are allowed to strafe later.

If all attacking "must" be done within the T60 time frame as the rule says, are you saying that squads have to follow the rules to attack within 60 minutes, but it is ok to attack after the 60 minute mark, while strafing? Is strafing a boat not attacking a boat?

So while you think that I and am  having a hard time with this, throwing up a rule verbatim simply tells me that you are having a hard time explaining where it is allowed in the rule to do this, which is what I asked for in the first place.


As far as the other rules and what has happened in the past, I dont believe that is on the table for discussion now.

[TheBug]

I think the rule is pretty clear... 

[lowZX14]

So, what I'm gathering from some of these posts is that some of the player base would like it to read like this.

"ll targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that the main attacks reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule.  However, after T+60, targets may be attacked by any means available to include strafing."

I for one don't see the need for it, but I'm guessing the FSO Team is going to take all of this into consideration.  The only mention of strafing is that it does not satisfy the rule that targets must be attacked by T+60, nowhere else does it say that it's forbidden.  

I can agree that some, keyword some, rules can be interpreted in different ways but not most of the time.  I don't see how the FSO Team doesn't have the proper guidance in the rules to be successful though.  I know a lot of people here have flown in FSO or any of its predecessors longer than I have but I have never really not been clear on a rule even when I have CiC'd in the past.  If there was ever a question which I may or may not have, I don't remember, I would have simply asked the Admin CM to clarify a little.  I thought the rules were pretty self-explanatory but like I have told other people, sometimes you have to break things down Barney style for some people to understand (not talking about you Dads in particular just a generalization).  I'm guessing the rules have to be written just like a good instructor would use, write and speak to the level of the audience which is why newspapers are written to be read on a 5th grade reading level.

B-17's dive bombing like TBM's, yes to me that's a little much   but just like with the rules and anything else in life, if there are loopholes or glitches for people to exploit, they're going to do it.

[Strip]

I think hearing from the people running the event would end some of this debate.

Are you guys okay with strafing down large ships using fighters on a authenticity and realism level?

(Pretend for second that no precedent has been set.)

Strip

[lowZX14]

Lowzx14, I dont have any problems understanding this rule at all. Seems pretty black and white to me. First part" "they must be attacked with explosive ordinance (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Second part: "Simply starfing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule".  First part says bombs and rockets only, second part says no strafing.

Ok, I understand a little bit more of what you are saying but I'm still having a little trouble understanding something.

It doesnt say you should attack "first" with rockets or bombs and it doesnt say you are allowed to strafe later.

You just stated that the first part does say you have to attack with bombs or rockets and it doesn't say you are not allowed to strafe later.  It says you have to attack your target by T+60 with bombs or rockets, simply strafing the target does not satisfy this rule.  Where does it say that after T+60 you can't strafe?  It doesn't say that anywhere, it only says you can't do it before which simple deduction leads me to believe that after T+60 you can strafe.

If all attacking "must" be done within the T60 time frame as the rule says, are you saying that squads have to follow the rules to attack within 60 minutes, but it is ok to attack after the 60 minute mark, while strafing? Is strafing a boat not attacking a boat?


As far as the other rules and what has happened in the past, I dont believe that is on the table for discussion now.

Yes and yes, I am saying that a credible force (as defined by the rules) must attack within 60 minutes with ordinance such as bombs or rockets.  After the 60 minute mark you can strafe.  Strafing a boat is attacking a boat but as long as the strafing is not just the initial attack you are well within the rules.

[Dadsguns]

You just stated that the first part does say you have to attack with bombs or rockets and it doesn't say you are not allowed to strafe later. IT says you have to attack your target by T+60 with bombs or rockets, simply strafing the target does not satisfy this rule. Where does it say that after T+60 you can't strafe? IT doesn't say that anywhere, it only says you can't do it before which simple deduction leads me to believe that after T+60 you can strafe.

Yes and yes, I am saying that a credible force (as defined by the rules) must attack within 60 minutes with ordinance such as bombs or rockets. After the 60 minute mark you can strafe. Strafing a boat is attacking a boat but as long as the strafing is not just the initial attack you are well within the rules.

Isn't that the goal of FSO is to recreat a scenario to be as authentic and realistic as possible?
So what your saying is that this is authentic and realistic?
It isn't, and that's why this has been brought up, I don't think that the rule was intended or created according to how its was written to accomplish a M-A'ish result of killing a CV at all cost, even with strafing or dive bombing 17's even though it can be exploited.

While every FSO event is fun as a whole (for me) gameplay issues like this detract from the authenticity of an event that strives to be authentic and realistic.

This is the goal of FSO and support it.

"Strafing a boat is attacking a boat but as long as the strafing is not just the initial attack you are well within the rules."
   But not authentic or realistic and not clearly stated is all.

[M36]

You just stated that the first part does say you have to attack with bombs or rockets and it doesn't say you are not allowed to strafe later.  It says you have to attack your target by T+60 with bombs or rockets, simply strafing the target does not satisfy this rule.  Where does it say that after T+60 you can't strafe?  It doesn't say that anywhere, it only says you can't do it before which simple deduction leads me to believe that after T+60 you can strafe.

The rule says "must" be attacked within T+60 minutes, which is telling me that you cannot attack after the T+60 minute mark. Saying you can attack after T+60 minutes because it doesnt say you cant is more bending of the rules to suit your needs.

If you attack your target within 15 minutes of taking off with bombs and rockets, per the rule, are you telling me that you are going to hang around somewhere for 45 minutes just so you can go back and strafe after the T+60 minute mark because it doesnt say we cant?

Maybe I missed it but I dont remember reading "credible force" anywhere. I read that a "full squad" which can be anywhere from the minimuim to the maximum allowed. Im going to look for it.

[lowZX14]

Yes sir, I agree with you 100% that the goal is to have an event that is as close to being historically accurate as possible.  I'm not saying that strafing a CV is very authentic and realistic, as a matter of fact the only info I can find about strafing is on smaller vessels and cargo ships such as in the Battle of the Bismarck Sea in March 1942 where B-25's and A-20's of the 89th and 90th BS ripped apart a Japanese convoy headed for Lae.  There were reports of Japanese Cruisers being strafed during Leyte Gulf, the 8th Pursuit Group strafing a Japanese Naval Task Force with P-38's off Mindoro in December 1944.  I haven't found any reports of carriers being sunk by these methods though.

[M36]

So, what I'm gathering from some of these posts is that some of the player base would like it to read like this.

"ll targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that the main attacks reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule.  However, after T+60, targets may be attacked by any means available to include strafing."

No, substituting the word "first" for the word must in the opening sentence takes all the guess work out of it, if strafing is going to be allowed anytime during the mission.

But opening the door to strafing after bombs and rockets are used, I can see that CV's wont last very long and the mission orders are going to change to account for this.

I have a hunch that there was an attempt to leave strafing out to prevent what is going to happen in the above sentence, but it was poorly worded and exploited to suit their needs. If you get out of the mentality of 'because it isnt written then it must be OK', things would probably go a little smoother. But, those that enforce the rules need to enforce them and not let things get out of control.

[Dadsguns]

Oh, I clearly read a "full squadron", if assigned with ords would be the attacking force.

It can easily be exploited, since a 16 man squadron could load there planes the way they seem fit for example:  
10 would drop ords on runway and 6 remain heavy, this would become a force that the CM did not intend in the scenario, thus doing so would arm 6 with ords and the other 10 for cap and meet the requirment of dropping ords in T+60 and then all 16 strafe to complete the mission.  

Thats gamey.

Where would it stop?  Even if 1 out of the 16 had ords to drop, it would still meet the requirment of dropping or attacking with ords, then all 16 strafe to complete the mission.

Its taking the easy route, instead of the intended purpose of the recreation of the event.

[lowZX14]

The rule says "must" be attacked within T+60 minutes, which is telling me that you cannot attack after the T+60 minute mark. Saying you can attack after T+60 minutes because it doesnt say you cant is more bending of the rules to suit your needs.

If you attack your target within 15 minutes of taking off with bombs and rockets, per the rule, are you telling me that you are going to hang around somewhere for 45 minutes just so you can go back and strafe after the T+60 minute mark because it doesnt say we cant?

Maybe I missed it but I dont remember reading "credible force" anywhere. I read that a "full squad" which can be anywhere from the minimuim to the maximum allowed. Im going to look for it.

If

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooook.  How long have you flown in FSO?  I'm not trying to be a smart you know what, but of course you can attack after T+60.  You have always been able to attack after T+60.  I'll let some of the Admin CM's from FSO weigh in on this but if you happen to attack your target in 15 minutes of taking off you don't have to hang around until after T+60 to go back.  As long as the initial attack meets the following criteria, everything is all good:
-Before T+60
-Uses bombs and/or rockets
-Is attacked by a credible force
-Is not just strafed

After the initial attack you can feel free to attack however you see fit.

BTW, I'm looking for the definition of credible force, I remember it being there somewhere from when I CiC'd in the past.

[M36]

Yes sir, I agree with you 100% that the goal is to have an event that is as close to being historically accurate as possible.  I'm not saying that strafing a CV is very authentic and realistic, as a matter of fact the only info I can find about strafing is on smaller vessels and cargo ships such as in the Battle of the Bismarck Sea in March 1942 where B-25's and A-20's of the 89th and 90th BS ripped apart a Japanese convoy headed for Lae.  There were reports of Japanese Cruisers being strafed during Leyte Gulf, the 8th Pursuit Group strafing a Japanese Naval Task Force with P-38's off Mindoro in December 1944.  I haven't found any reports of carriers being sunk by these methods though.

I agree with this. Strafing smaller ships and cargo ships is reasonable but those are not in FSO's. I would imagine that going in on a ship that is firing back with everything they have just to make a bombing or torpedo run would cause the seat cushion to get sucked right up because of the "pucker factor". Why on earth, unless in desperation, would these pilots want to go back in and strafe a huge ship with bullets after they survived by the skin of their teeth on the bombing run?  If not done in real life, there is no place for it here, because it will turn into the MA atmosphere which someone brought up.

[lowZX14]

Oh, I clearly read a "full squadron", if assigned with ords would be the attacking force.

It can easily be exploited, since a 16 man squadron could load there planes the way they seem fit for example:  
10 would drop ords on runway and 6 remain heavy, this would become a force that the CM did not intend in the scenario, thus doing so would arm 6 with ords and the other 10 for cap and meet the requirment of dropping ords in T+60 and then all 16 strafe to complete the mission.  

Thats gamey.

Where would it stop?  Even if 1 out of the 16 had ords to drop, it would still meet the requirment of dropping or attacking with ords, then all 16 strafe to complete the mission.

Its taking the easy route, instead of the intended purpose of the recreation of the event.

That is a very good question.  Right now, I don't see anything prohibiting anyone from doing that as long as the bombs were dropped first.  I agree that it is taking the easy route instead of the intended purpose.  I was just trying to clarify that the way the rule is written as long as you make an initial attempt to attack by T+60 with ordinance you can have follow on attacks of any nature after that. 

[Strip]

That is a very good question.  Right now, I don't see anything prohibiting anyone from doing that as long as the bombs were dropped first.  I agree that it is taking the easy route instead of the intended purpose.  I was just trying to clarify that the way the rule is written as long as you make an initial attempt to attack by T+60 with ordinance you can have follow on attacks of any nature after that. 

lowZX14,

I think their are two issues here, one being if it was against the rules, the other, if it was within the spirit of the FSO mantra.

Strip

[lowZX14]

I understand you Strip and Baumer and others have pointed out that it was not against the rules.  First the ships were hit with bombs, second the rules don't say you can't do it for a follow on attack.

As far as being against the spirit of FSO and the gamey-ness of the situation, that is being discussed in another undisclosed location  and I'm sure that the opinions and feedback of the player base from this thread and others will be taken into account and decisions made as to whether it is allowed or not.  I've got a feeling that they way FSO normally is, it will be one of those things that is up to the Admin CM of that certain event and there would be no need for more rules to be put in place.