Frame 1 Rules Clarification.......

[M36]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooook.  How long have you flown in FSO?

Hmmmmm, let me see. My first time back was Nov 6th. Before that, probably four or five seperate times when our squad was in FSO's a couple of years ago.

However, how many times or how long I have been here is not the issure. As the FSO CO for my squad, I am just entitled as any other CO to have a clear interpretation of the rules and I am going to learn all the little "long standing precedents" so I can bend the rules to the benefit of my squad and the country I fly with, if this is the way FSO's are run.

"All attacks must be made within 60 minutes of the start of the frame" It does not say you can also attack after the 60 minute mark, and if you are allowed to do this, why do you feel the need to include this in the rule change that you posted about earlier? Am I the only one who thinks that all attacks have to be made within "60 minutes" of the start of the frame?

However, after T+60, targets may be attacked by any means available to include strafing."

This is the problem here, rules are bent and twisted to suit whatever the mission is called for, and in this case, Daddog is calling foul, yet you go back through the list of replys's and just about everyone says it's OK. Probably because they were the ones strafing the CV and dont want to admit to doing something wrong. Does anyone want to come forward and say "I broke the rules as they were written"? Of course not,  its easier to for the rule breakers, uh excuse me rule exploiters, to stand behind their exploitations and say it is within in the rules when it is against the rules.

Im sure that in the spirit of fair play and fun for all, FSO's was not designed for one side to have a little more fun than the otherides by  circumventing rules to gain more points. Gain more points by exploiting rules, surely that doesnt go on here?

There doesnt need to be a boat load of rules. There does need to be well defined rules, and any exceptions to the rules can be issued by whomever is writing up the orders goals or whatever for the frames, for that set of frames only.

[TracerX]

"All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame.(MET)
 
They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron.(This wasnt met since all in the attacking force were not outfitted with bombs or attempted to drop ords, as stated only 6 maybe 7 had dropped ords or even had them.  Had they all been loaded with ords 16 P40's would have easily taken the CV out in a realistic manner.)

Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule."(16 P40's did just that, strafed the target)

Then it clearly needs to say that. Which it currently and clearly does not.

As the CIC for the Allied Side, I will make you aware of what happened.  You are missing out on part of the story.  I had committed as many of my limited supply of B-17's to attacking this carrier as possible.  This amounted to 8 B-17’s per CV, Twice the number of B-17’s required to sink a CV if all of the Bombs hit the target.  Unfortunately, and it is completely expected with manual calibration, only one of the B-17’s struk the CV on the first wave, killing 10+ objects and guns.  The surviving B-17’s went and rearmed for a 2nd strike.

During the rearm, I called in other squads to help with the CV, knowing that it was only lightly damaged.  The Nightmares responded, having defended their target, and being one of the only squads still close to full strength, I called them in.  Fortunately, they had followed orders and loaded bombs on their P-40’s so that after rearming, they could be called to support a follow up attack.  

The B-17’s on their return, were wiped out along with their escorts by a massive swarm of Zeros.  The Nightmares were notified of the large force, and told to approach the CV with extreme caution.  Luckily, they made it to target, dropped their eggs, and doing heavy damage to the CV, could tell that it was almost dead.  They decided to attempt a few passes (at great risk while taking AA fire and engaged by fighters) to see if the CV could be sunk.  Fortunately, it only took a few passes, and it went down.  

Please note that a substantial force was targeted on the CV, the enemy defenses were successful in neutralizing a large part of the attack, and the follow up attack was risking much by staying in the AA fire while engaged by enemy fighters.  They would not have been there if they did not have a substantial amount of ordinance to drop on the CV.  This was not calling in a force just to strafe down the CV.  The hardness of the CV, the AA guns from the support destroyers and the enemy fighters would make a pure straffing attack suicide.  

[j500ss]

TracerX,   after reading the orders, I've yet to see a problem with what happened, and in the entire thread where there was a rule broken or compromised.   Great orders, nice touch with the p-40's initally upping with ords.  In the end it was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.


 

[lowZX14]

Hmmmmm, let me see. My first time back was Nov 6th. Before that, probably four or five seperate times when our squad was in FSO's a couple of years ago.

However, how many times or how long I have been here is not the issure. As the FSO CO for my squad, I am just entitled as any other CO to have a clear interpretation of the rules and I am going to learn all the little "long standing precedents" so I can bend the rules to the benefit of my squad and the country I fly with, if this is the way FSO's are run.

"All attacks must be made within 60 minutes of the start of the frame" It does not say you can also attack after the 60 minute mark, and if you are allowed to do this, why do you feel the need to include this in the rule change that you posted about earlier? Am I the only one who thinks that all attacks have to be made within "60 minutes" of the start of the frame?

This is the problem here, rules are bent and twisted to suit whatever the mission is called for, and in this case, Daddog is calling foul, yet you go back through the list of replys's and just about everyone says it's OK. Probably because they were the ones strafing the CV and dont want to admit to doing something wrong. Does anyone want to come forward and say "I broke the rules as they were written"? Of course not,  its easier to for the rule breakers, uh excuse me rule exploiters, to stand behind their exploitations and say it is within in the rules when it is against the rules.

Im sure that in the spirit of fair play and fun for all, FSO's was not designed for one side to have a little more fun than the otherides by  circumventing rules to gain more points. Gain more points by exploiting rules, surely that doesnt go on here?

There doesnt need to be a boat load of rules. There does need to be well defined rules, and any exceptions to the rules can be issued by whomever is writing up the orders goals or whatever for the frames, for that set of frames only.

I think you may be the only one who thinks that all attacks as a whole have to be made within 60 minutes.  Yes the initial attacks have to be made but you can make follow on attacks any time after that.  That rule has been clearly stated and I have never heard of anyone not understanding it until now.  As long as I have been a part of this and anyone can back me up, you've always been able to attack after T+60.  I told you earlier, I'm not trying to seem condescending or anything, but you're reading too much into the rules.

As far as people saying it's ok being the ones who participated, I don't know who was there or not but I wasn't and I'm saying there was no violation. 

Daddog never cried foul. He agreed with BigR who said this....

The rule was that you have to make an attempt with ord before 60 minutes. The B17s were that attempt. That is the only requirement. After the initial bombing attempt, it doesn't matter what you use. Ive seen this done many many times during FSOs on targets on air bases. Ive even seen bombers drop their bombs, and then make low strafing passes with their turrets. There is long standing precedent that makes the attack on the CV legit.

[Wolfie]

See, this thread along with others shows the glaring problems that the FSO Team is facing.  I'm not even on the FSO Team and it's giving me a headache, much less the guys that are spending their own time to bring this event to life.  You have certain people who seem to want a rule for every situation typed out in exact letter and seem to want the rules as air tight as a legal document, but on the other hand there are others who feel that too many rules and a sort of micro-management of the CiC's by the CM's ties the CiC's hands and does not allow much flexibility and creativity.  It's a fine line that the CM's are facing to make this an enjoyable event for everybody involved and I believe that a few people need to step back, take a deep breath, and be thankful that they have something like FSO to attend on Friday nights or any of the other special events that take place.  Ok, I'm done with the soapbox, who's next?

QFT

[Baumer]

Let me be absolutely clear on this.

I am the designer of this FSO.

I have reviewed the orders TracerX created, and the attack on the CV was well within the rules of FSO.

The initial attack force as intercepted but did moderate damage. The P-40E's (which were initially assigned to defend a target and did) were a follow on attack that the CiC asked for later in the frame, again this is completely within the rules of FSO.

And M36 just to put your mind at ease, I am flying axis in this FSO so I have no bias.

[Saxman]

I agree with this. Strafing smaller ships and cargo ships is reasonable but those are not in FSO's. I would imagine that going in on a ship that is firing back with everything they have just to make a bombing or torpedo run would cause the seat cushion to get sucked right up because of the "pucker factor". Why on earth, unless in desperation, would these pilots want to go back in and strafe a huge ship with bullets after they survived by the skin of their teeth on the bombing run?  If not done in real life, there is no place for it here, because it will turn into the MA atmosphere which someone brought up.

Then again, FM-2s were strafing Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers at the Battle off Samar. No they're not carriers, but just goes to show you fighters strafing capital ships DID happen.

[M36]

As the CIC for the Allied Side, I will make you aware of what happened.  You are missing out on part of the story.  I had committed as many of my limited supply of B-17's to attacking this carrier as possible.  This amounted to 8 B-17’s per CV, Twice the number of B-17’s required to sink a CV if all of the Bombs hit the target.  Unfortunately, and it is completely expected with manual calibration, only one of the B-17’s struk the CV on the first wave, killing 10+ objects and guns.  The surviving B-17’s went and rearmed for a 2nd strike.

During the rearm, I called in other squads to help with the CV, knowing that it was only lightly damaged.  The Nightmares responded, having defended their target, and being one of the only squads still close to full strength, I called them in.  Fortunately, they had followed orders and loaded bombs on their P-40’s so that after rearming, they could be called to support a follow up attack. 

Interesting, so as long as the the primary mission is carried out and the mission completed or there are signs that  a particular squad does not need to defend because a lack of bad guys, they can be called away on a seperate mission to help complete someone elses'? As in your case of finding a bunch of P-40's dressed up and know where to go.

I think you may be the only one who thinks that all attacks as a whole have to be made within 60 minutes.  Yes the initial attacks have to be made but you can make follow on attacks any time after that.  That rule has been clearly stated and I have never heard of anyone not understanding it until now.  As long as I have been a part of this and anyone can back me up, you've always been able to attack after T+60.  I told you earlier, I'm not trying to seem condescending or anything, but you're reading too much into the rules.

If that is the interpretation, then that makes sense to me. If that attack that has to be made is the initial attack under the 60 minute mark. Going along with that thought there is no limit to the number of attacks at all within the time period or after as long as the initial is within.

As far as reading to much into the rules, I think with being the CO and this past Friday was my first time, I have to read into the rules and, I am entitled to get a good clarification of the rules. If something is written into the rules that is black and white, but thats not really what it means when it comes to playing, and if FSO's is run under that premise, then I am going to learn how to game the game as others seem to be doing. Im not saying its a bad thing if this the norm, but whats good for the goose...........

Im not making accusations of any intentional crookedness, but I need to find out how this all works, and I realize I wont figure it out in one frame. Even two for that matter.

[M36]

Let me be absolutely clear on this.

I am the designer of this FSO.

I have reviewed the orders TracerX created, and the attack on the CV was well within the rules of FSO.

The initial attack force as intercepted but did moderate damage. The P-40E's (which were initially assigned to defend a target and did) were a follow on attack that the CiC asked for later in the frame, again this is completely within the rules of FSO.

I understand that, and it is good to know. However, the reason for the original post needs to be ruled on. I have posted my feelings on it and I would like to hear the ruling so I know how to act with my squad in the future.

[Dadsguns]

Thanks for the inputs and sharing some interesting views.

I think we can all agree that the one thing we don't want to continue to see or remotely be accepted in the FSO is the MA mentality of all or nothing, that is not in the spirit of the FSO of recreating a historic event.

I cherish the events that I get to participate in and try to make it as enjoyable for me as I do for anyone else including my foe, some will take advantage and exploit what they can for whatever reason they must, but at least have a catch net in place to prevent ruining a good thing so that it is clear as to what is acceptable and what is not.

I may stand alone when I say I don't agree with strafing a CV, and I will continue to do so since I know that it isn't what happened during the time the recreation of that event was meant for, that's just me and I wont participate in that.  If I don't have the skills to take it down with bombs than its just not meant to be taken down.

My perception of FSO will always be an arena where it takes a more disciplined pilot to execute orders that are given, execute them to his best ability against another skillful foe, someone that does not need to take shortcuts or an easy route to accomplish a goal, but skill that will ultimately dictate the outcome of his mission success. 

[M36]

Im getting the Dads mixed up. I said Daddog, but meant Dadsguns. My bad.

[Strip]

I may stand alone when I say I don't agree with strafing a CV, and I will continue to do so since I know that it isn't what happened during the time the recreation of that event was meant for, that's just me and I wont participate in that.  If I don't have the skills to take it down with bombs than its just not meant to be taken down.

Your not standing alone....

 

[DCCBOSS]

Thanks for the inputs and sharing some interesting views.

I think we can all agree that the one thing we don't want to continue to see or remotely be accepted in the FSO is the MA mentality of all or nothing, that is not in the spirit of the FSO of recreating a historic event.

I cherish the events that I get to participate in and try to make it as enjoyable for me as I do for anyone else including my foe, some will take advantage and exploit what they can for whatever reason they must, but at least have a catch net in place to prevent ruining a good thing so that it is clear as to what is acceptable and what is not.

I may stand alone when I say I don't agree with strafing a CV, and I will continue to do so since I know that it isn't what happened during the time the recreation of that event was meant for, that's just me and I wont participate in that.  If I don't have the skills to take it down with bombs than its just not meant to be taken down.

My perception of FSO will always be an arena where it takes a more disciplined pilot to execute orders that are given, execute them to his best ability against another skillful foe, someone that does not need to take shortcuts or an easy route to accomplish a goal, but skill that will ultimately dictate the outcome of his mission success. 

+1 


We all enjoy the professionalism of the FSO operations and I also would not want to see these events reduced to a MA mentality in the way of orders being carried out or interpreted.

[M36]

I may stand alone when I say I don't agree with strafing a CV, and I will continue to do so since I know that it isn't what happened during the time the recreation of that event was meant for, that's just me and I wont participate in that.  If I don't have the skills to take it down with bombs than its just not meant to be taken down.

From my posts Im with Dadsguns.  I hope the jury is out on this, for the frames in the following months. I am very interested in the outcome.

[ink]

new rule for FSO- no one is allowed to shoot INK down!














seriously