Negative-G push? or "stick stir"?

[Sol75]

I can tell you from experience, while I have not had a FULL redout, I have had the beginnings of one, and it is NOT pleasant.  Negative G's are VERY uncomfortable.  Your head feels like it is going to explode, your vision DOES begin to grow red, although when the forces are relaxed the "red" goes away... (its not a true RED more of a black tinted red).
The other thing that was noted by aviation physicians, and I have confirmed, is a DRASTIC slowing of the heartbeat during and after higher neg G' forces.  This has to do witht he rise in blood pressure in the head and abdomen, which triggers the heart to slow down.  I have experienced this to the point that after a high neg G maneuver, (such as an outside immelman, or inverted cuban 8), after recovering straight and level, I checked my pulse, jsut to see, and my heart was beating approx 1 every 2 seconds, versus a normal RESTING heartrate for me of around 78BPM.  Keep in mind my heartrate would have been elevated even higher than resting due to the stresses of aerobatic flight.  You can see that if you continued to SUSTAIN neg G loadings, it could slow your heart enough to cause you to pass out from that as well.

Conclusion:
Short period Neg G's are quite tolerable, though uncomfortable.  They do not cause any higher feeling of "sickness" than pos G's, although rapid switching BETWEEN the 2 may, haven't really done htis so I cannot comment.  Neg G's cause effects at a much lower G loading than positive, with discomfort occuring at 1.5-2 neg, and redout beginning at 3-4 neg.  A neg G push of 3.5 G, for approx 15 seconds, during an inverted (outside) immelman, slowed my heart from (estimated) 120-130beats per min, to around 30 beats per minute.  This quickly resolved itself as the G loading was reduced, however it COULD cause some people to loose conciousness, and if G loadings were greater, and/or longer, it could lead to GLOC due to slowed heartrate and blood stagnation.  After landing while flying a routine involving neg G loads, my eyes tend to be quite bloodshot, and occasionally I will have various bruises on my face, from ruptured blood vessels.

Theoretically, a high enough Neg G loading, and/or length of Neg G loading, could cause hemmorage in the blood vessels of the brain and eyes, causing perm. or temp. blindness, or possibly even stroke.

The brief periods, and low neg G loading most folks use here in the game as a defensive maeuver, would be quite tolerable, if uncomfortable by RL pilots.  However, the other question is, aside from aerobatic aircraft, most aircraft have a MUCH lower neg G tolerance than Pos G's. I am not sure what said tolerances are on the various WW2 aircraft, but Neg G's could EASILY lead to structural failure since most aircraft are built with Pos G's in mind.
Don't think this is modelled in AH though, maybe HTC could chime in on that ?

[Steve]

Great post Sol! I think when I go flying  I'll skip the neg G stuff. Having given it much thought, I've decided that having a stroke or going blind whould be a bad thing.   

[Bear76]

I can tell you from experience, while I have not had a FULL redout, I have had the beginnings of one, and it is NOT pleasant.  Negative G's are VERY uncomfortable.  Your head feels like it is going to explode, your vision DOES begin to grow red, although when the forces are relaxed the "red" goes away... (its not a true RED more of a black tinted red).
The other thing that was noted by aviation physicians, and I have confirmed, is a DRASTIC slowing of the heartbeat during and after higher neg G' forces.  This has to do witht he rise in blood pressure in the head and abdomen, which triggers the heart to slow down.  I have experienced this to the point that after a high neg G maneuver, (such as an outside immelman, or inverted cuban 8), after recovering straight and level, I checked my pulse, jsut to see, and my heart was beating approx 1 every 2 seconds, versus a normal RESTING heartrate for me of around 78BPM.  Keep in mind my heartrate would have been elevated even higher than resting due to the stresses of aerobatic flight.  You can see that if you continued to SUSTAIN neg G loadings, it could slow your heart enough to cause you to pass out from that as well.

Conclusion:
Short period Neg G's are quite tolerable, though uncomfortable.  They do not cause any higher feeling of "sickness" than pos G's, although rapid switching BETWEEN the 2 may, haven't really done htis so I cannot comment.  Neg G's cause effects at a much lower G loading than positive, with discomfort occuring at 1.5-2 neg, and redout beginning at 3-4 neg.  A neg G push of 3.5 G, for approx 15 seconds, during an inverted (outside) immelman, slowed my heart from (estimated) 120-130beats per min, to around 30 beats per minute.  This quickly resolved itself as the G loading was reduced, however it COULD cause some people to loose conciousness, and if G loadings were greater, and/or longer, it could lead to GLOC due to slowed heartrate and blood stagnation.  After landing while flying a routine involving neg G loads, my eyes tend to be quite bloodshot, and occasionally I will have various bruises on my face, from ruptured blood vessels.

Theoretically, a high enough Neg G loading, and/or length of Neg G loading, could cause hemmorage in the blood vessels of the brain and eyes, causing perm. or temp. blindness, or possibly even stroke.

The brief periods, and low neg G loading most folks use here in the game as a defensive maeuver, would be quite tolerable, if uncomfortable by RL pilots.  However, the other question is, aside from aerobatic aircraft, most aircraft have a MUCH lower neg G tolerance than Pos G's. I am not sure what said tolerances are on the various WW2 aircraft, but Neg G's could EASILY lead to structural failure since most aircraft are built with Pos G's in mind.
Don't think this is modelled in AH though, maybe HTC could chime in on that ?

Nice post Sol and I pretty much agree. The fights I hate are the "911" fights, when you are absolutely convinced the guy you are fighting is having a stroke. ACM somehow becomes more like a SPASM

[-pjk--]

Nice post sol.
I´have only doing neg G flying Pitss S1SS. Mostly -2-4G and +6 flying compete condtions(1km square cubic).Over 100 hours(at least 500  sorties). Never have had  any peroblems to stay avake or feeling bad enought to  not order beer at club. There must be a big tolerance btw posters of this board(RL experiance)

[CAP1]

Nice post sol.
I´have only doing neg G flying Pitss S1SS. Mostly -2-4G and +6 flying compete condtions(1km square cubic).Over 100 hours(at least 500  sorties). Never have had  any peroblems to stay avake or feeling bad enought to  not order beer at club. There must be a big tolerance btw posters of this board(RL experiance)

on that, i've never flown aerobatic.

the most i've pulled was enough to do a 360 degree turn at 55 degrees bank angle. i don't know how much it was....  the first time, i got a feeling in my head i don't know how to explain. it wasn't physical. it was weird. i rolled out the first time, and my cfi asked me why i exited the bank. told him i was feeling "weird" in the head, and felt it best to go level.
 he said that was a good decision. when we did the next ones, i was a little more ready, and it was fine....as long as i concentrated.

 i
ve never done anything with negative, short of the nose dropping off when the i do stalls.

[Sol75]

Nice post sol.
I´have only doing neg G flying Pitss S1SS. Mostly -2-4G and +6 flying compete condtions(1km square cubic).Over 100 hours(at least 500  sorties). Never have had  any peroblems to stay avake or feeling bad enought to  not order beer at club. There must be a big tolerance btw posters of this board(RL experiance)

I do aero in an Edge 540T, and as you said, I also have never experienced anything which makes me feel THAT bad... mostly just basic exhaustion... I have greyed out a few times, but never (thankfully) had a full GLOC... 

As I said, those are potential physiologic reactions, not that doing x will cause y....G tolerance is like any physical activity, you can build endurance over time....to a certain point.

[Anaxogoras]

While it does bother me how the game punishes black-out far more severely than red-out, it's the fault of the game that players exploit it.

I met a guy who got to ride in the back seat of a F-18 when he was in Iraq, and experienced red-out.  He claimed his vision was impaired for about 30 seconds, and still affected for minutes afterward.

[RufusLeaking]

The brief periods, and low neg G loading most folks use here in the game as a defensive maeuver, would be quite tolerable, if uncomfortable by RL pilots.  However, the other question is, aside from aerobatic aircraft, most aircraft have a MUCH lower neg G tolerance than Pos G's. I am not sure what said tolerances are on the various WW2 aircraft, but Neg G's could EASILY lead to structural failure since most aircraft are built with Pos G's in mind.
Don't think this is modelled in AH though, maybe HTC could chime in on that ?

Tolerable is about all one can say about negative G's.  Negative G's are uncomfortable and disorienting.  It is hard to model for a sim pilot, as are the effects of positive G's. 

While they may exist, I have never seen a plane with the positive G limits equal to negative G limits.  In the T-38, there was a third limit, "rolling G's."  These were positive G's pulled while rolling.  I am not sure that there is a WW II equivalent.  Exceeding a G limit was fatal only to one's grade on a training sortie.
Modeling G induced failure seems like it would be difficult.  What yields first?  Does one model bent planes that haven't quite failed? 

the most i've pulled was enough to do a 360 degree turn at 55 degrees bank angle. i don't know how much it was.... 

A level turn at 60 degrees of bank is a 2 G turn.

[Wagger]

I can not give any information based on real life experience.  What I can say is that I do fly the FW-190 series most of the time and have used a maneuver described by Eric Hartman many times.  Usually it is when I have gotten lazy and I hear his rounds hitting my plane or see them whizzing by my cockpit.  Most of the time my immediate reaction is to push nose down left or right.  On occasions when I use it and don't have enough E and follow it with an overly aggressive roll into a split S I sometimes stall and my plane goes into an erratic spin which does not help things one bit.  Now I have to get nose down, chop throttle and get straitened out and build up some speed.  I can imagine it does give the impression of stick stirring but it is unintentional, and puts me in a situation I would much rather not be in.  Spinning without any flight control response gives me that oh toejam feeling.  You know that feeling?  Hey guys big target come and get me. 

As for fighting others who use different evasive maneuvers I sometimes wonder how they do it.  Some of the maneuvers just look impossible to pull off in real life.  Especially true for some of what you call fish tailing.  It hard to believe that some of these planes could possibly change direction as quickly as they do. 

As for my take on it, sometimes it gets aggravating when you are up against these maneuvers and just can not tag them and waste your ammo.  But that is what your squad mates are for.  squeak and moan to them or even better my wife.  She still listens to me thank God.  As for calling someone out, hey its a game.  And like real life you only have control over what you do and all the complaining in the world will not change it.  There fore Horrido <S> and see you in the friendly skies.

[Sol75]

While it does bother me how the game punishes black-out far more severely than red-out, it's the fault of the game that players exploit it.

I met a guy who got to ride in the back seat of a F-18 when he was in Iraq, and experienced red-out.  He claimed his vision was impaired for about 30 seconds, and still affected for minutes afterward.

The length of the vision impact is proportional to the amount and duration of the neg G loads.

[Sol75]

Tolerable is about all one can say about negative G's.  Negative G's are uncomfortable and disorienting.  It is hard to model for a sim pilot, as are the effects of positive G's. 

While they may exist, I have never seen a plane with the positive G limits equal to negative G limits.  In the T-38, there was a third limit, "rolling G's."  These were positive G's pulled while rolling.  I am not sure that there is a WW II equivalent.  Exceeding a G limit was fatal only to one's grade on a training sortie.
Modeling G induced failure seems like it would be difficult.  What yields first?  Does one model bent planes that haven't quite failed? 
A level turn at 60 degrees of bank is a 2 G turn.
 

Precisely what I was saying.  and yes, G loads are near impossible to model in a sim, whether positive, or negative.  Rolling G limit is generally defined as 2/3 of max G limit of the airframe.  Has to do with the additional G loads imparted on the wing moving "up" due to the aoa increase from the aileron. 
Aerobatic aircraft can be certified under FAR 23 for "flick" maneuvers, including snap-rolls.  These aircraft must be able to withstand much higher asymmetric G loadings on all flight surfaces to gain certification.  This eliminate the "rolling G limit" on aircraft such as the Edge, Extra, YAK-54, etc etc
As to how to model structural failure, the only way to do so is as AH does presently, if a G load is GURANTEED to break the main spar, or other such structure, fail it, much as AH does now with ripping wings off airplanes during high speed dives/sharp pullouts.  My question was more to the point of, does AH model said loads in the negative, since airframes are generally much weaker in the neg G regime, outside of said aerobatic aircraft.

[CAP1]

i actually tried the maneuver mentioned by the op 2x last night. both times i was treetop, both times being attacked by a much faster red guy. both times, it caused him to overshoot me very seriously, although i wasn't able to immediately able to kill either of them............

just as described........just about blackout g's..........see the red guy pulling lead, push the stick forward....although i added a little top rudder......but they both lost me in that maneuver.

[HighGTrn]

Nothing personal but I really despise people who do this.  What you described is not stick stirring but in my opinion, it is gaming the game.  There is a difference between stick stirring, jinking and doing what you said.  I have seen some pretty good AH sticks jink with a neg G push as I scream by thus spoiling my shot.  To me, thats ok because in reality, it is and has been done many times.

What I can't stand are the 190 guys doing 400 plus mph, pushing a sustained hard negative g maneuver.  I spoke to an USAF flight surgeon once about pulling Gs.  He said that sustained negative Gs (more than a few seconds) could cause some pretty serious damage, even strokes.  The red out is caused by blood vessels in the eyes exploding.  You have those same vessels in your brain too.

Like I said, I think quick neg G push timed correctly can spoil a shot as along as it is done in conjunction with other moves.  However, to do this and create a reversal and then try and to react to gain a shot after the reversal in a timely manner is pretty hard to do for most humans.

[CAP1]

Nothing personal but I really despise people who do this.  What you described is not stick stirring but in my opinion, it is gaming the game.  There is a difference between stick stirring, jinking and doing what you said.  I have seen some pretty good AH sticks jink with a neg G push as I scream by thus spoiling my shot.  To me, thats ok because in reality, it is and has been done many times.

What I can't stand are the 190 guys doing 400 plus mph, pushing a sustained hard negative g maneuver.  I spoke to an USAF flight surgeon once about pulling Gs.  He said that sustained negative Gs (more than a few seconds) could cause some pretty serious damage, even strokes.  The red out is caused by blood vessels in the eyes exploding.  You have those same vessels in your brain too.

Like I said, I think quick neg G push timed correctly can spoil a shot as along as it is done in conjunction with other moves.  However, to do this and create a reversal and then try and to react to gain a shot after the reversal in a timely manner is pretty hard to do for most humans.

in my case, it was followed by a roll to in the direction of top rudder, trying to keep them from gaining seperation, and thus possibly having an easy shot at me.

[HighGTrn]

I was refering to the RV, the original poster of this thread.