Dora charts

[Pongo]

I still say that nothing should be perked on intro. Let us all fly it and work on it so that if it is perked there is a solid understanding of why.

[niklas]

 

Fw190D9's MW50 Speeds; according to Verm charts:
SL: 380mph

yes with 1900hp
 

P51D turns markedly better than the Fw190A8, the D9 will turn worse than the A8.

not true, D9 turned better than A8. Way better

 

P51D has markedly better firepower than the Fw190D9 (not just because punch only,wich could be arguable, but also because the way better accuracy, bullet speed,RoF, and range of the 50cals)

Yes, dora has cannons close to the fuselage. No wing vibrations affect bullet dispersion there. Unfortunatly AH doesnīt simulate that guns or cannons far outside in the wing are affected by wing vibrations. What rests for the D9 in AH is the disadvantage of a lower ROF, because the weapon has to shoot through the propeller. THIS effect, of course, IS modelled!


 

While d9 is faster than P51D in most altitudes, P51D has better dive, high speed handling and E-retaining.
D9, on its side, has better acceleration, and better climbrate

i think Dora has a better E retention, because it has a more powerful engine.. High Speed handling of a Dora was excellent. A real Pilot didnīt need to care about trim i.e. . The electrical-hydraulical automatic trim system of the 190 made it unnecessary to trim even in fast dives.


 

BTW I <punt> my previous post. 360mph for the 190A8/190F8 at Sea Level... In AH it is 350mph...

why?

because the numbers in this table are calculated  for faired surface condition, smooth painting, no influence of compressibillity ...(read the footnote)

niklas

[R4M]

 

Originally posted by niklas:
yes with 1900hp

Fw190A8 in aces high does almost 1900hp with petrol injection. Topspeed 350mph. I dont know the drag of the Fw190D9, but you wont convince me that it causes a loss of 30mph  

not true, D9 turned better than A8. Way better

False. D9 was 300lbs lighter, but had a longer fuselage with tail more separate from the wing than A8. I recall reading here that only because that, 190D9 would be worse turner than A8. And I believed that. Anyway with 300lbs less, D9 would be slightly better turner than the Fw190A8 and A8 can't turn with P51D. I know it well,lol

Plus, Zigrat excell sheet also said it. Sorry, but the d9 will turn worse than P51 (I wish it didnt ), more if the P51 uses flaps.

Yes, dora has cannons close to the fuselage. No wing vibrations affect bullet dispersion there. Unfortunatly AH doesnīt simulate that guns or cannons far outside in the wing are affected by wing vibrations. What rests for the D9 in AH is the disadvantage of a lower ROF, because the weapon has to shoot through the propeller. THIS effect, of course, IS modelled!

Ok, that is all about RL, I say that in Aces High six 50 cals are better than the 2x20mm and 2x13mm on the D9. And they are  


i think Dora has a better E retention, because it has a more powerful engine.. High Speed handling of a Dora was excellent. A real Pilot didnīt need to care about trim i.e. . The electrical-hydraulical automatic trim system of the 190 made it unnecessary to trim even in fast dives.

P51 was heavier, more inertia. P51 had way less drag, less e-losing. D9 will build E faster but P51 will be better zoomer at the same Speed start.

In aces high trim is manual, so that advantage is gone.

Again what you say may have sense in RL, not in AH.

because the numbers in this table are calculated  for faired surface condition, smooth painting, no influence of compressibillity ...(read the footnote)

footnote is in german and I speak nothing of german   .

Anyway then you are wrong too, SL speed listed for the Fw190D9 in that chart is 380mph, how come, if it is on a smooth painted D9?...shouldnt it be faster,then?  

360mph for Fw190A8 at SL is listed in many books...

 This is a 1944 document showing 360mph at SL. 2 weeks ago I asked about this, because a VVS page said that the A8 SL speed was 360mph, and said too that the La7 was so welcome in the VVS because the Yak9u, while faster than the 190s doing slashing low level attacks, COULDT CATCH THEM UNLESS IN A LONG RUN.

Here Yak9u is 15mph faster than the 190A8 at Sea level. It should be 15 KM/HOUR faster.

 


[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-03-2001).]

[Vermillion]

RAM, I accidently erased your email as I was reading it, and I don't have your email address.

I sent you the Fw190A8 Pilots Handbook on Tuesday by international air mail, and they said it would take about 2 weeks for it to arrive.

Did you miss the two threads here on this BBS where I posted most of the performance charts?
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001655.html

AND
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001656.html

Why the discrepancy, to be honest I don't know.  I was under the impression that the Sea Level Max Speed value from the Ta152 charts that inside of the parenthesis was the MW50 performance. Possibly a prototype since alot of the planes on that page are test aircraft. Otherwise I don't know.

But I do know that the AH charts match the 190 Pilots Handbook.

Check out the two threads I posted for some preliminary information for you, and the pilots handbook should be arriving soon.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[R4M]

Well, the pilot handbook is in english...this chart in german...dated 1/10/1944, and seems an official RLM document.

I must ask, the handbook is a translation of the 190A8's german official pilot handbook? or is done after testing a captured 190A8?


I've asked to a buddy who knows german, and the Fw190A8 of that test is NOT using MW50, is explicited in the down right side of the chart, that all the planes on the chart are using MW50 except the Fw190A8 wich is using the fuel injection with increased MAN, but NO the MW50.

360mph...from an official RLM document...makes one think...

remember that link I posted about 2 weeks ago? about the VVS studies of the Fw190A8?...that page said that the La7 was welcome between the VVS pilots because the Yak9U needed a lot of time to catch a 190A8 at SL topspeed. Here yak9U's speed is 15mph faster than A8's and that is A LOT...wont explain the VVS report, wouldnt it?

[Vermillion]

Can anyone who speaks/reads German please tell me what each of the five curves correspond too please?

I want to include the Dora in my La7 vs late war plane comparison, and I want to include the proper curve for it.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[C_R_Caldwell]

R4M, my understanding is that whilst the Dora had a lower instantaneous turn than the A-8 and its nose was more difficult to point quickly (if that makes sense to you), the D-9 actually had a superior sustained turn.It had a slightly lower wing-loading (approx 48lb per sq. ft for the D-9 as opposed to roughly 49lb sq ft. for the A-8).

To say that the A-8 has a patently superior turn rate than the Dora is rubbish (no offense intended).I have , as have many ppl in this forum, plenty of anecdotal evidence from LW pilots who had converted over from the Anton-8 to the Dora-9.Superior abilities in the dive & far superior climb-rates are always mentioned,as are its superior acceleration, max TAS & altitude performance.It appears that the D-9 was more sluggish in the pitch axis (due in no small part to the extra length of the Dora's nose).

This apparent sluggishness affected the pilot's ability to make fast changes in pitch (his ability to quickly point the nose where he wanted it), hence the A-8's better instantaneous turn rate.Whilst the turn-radius of the Anton-8 & Dora-9 were very similar, the Dora could hold E much better in the turn (& in general) than the A-8, thus allowing for a superior sustained turn by the D-9.

One area where the A-8 had an edge was in rate of roll, but from just about everything I've read, the difference was relatively small.The Dora could still easily out-roll any of its Allied opponents at speeds up to 400mph.

So what we have is an a/c that has a far greater rate of climb, top speed at all alts, better acceleration & dive rate, and superior sustained turn than the A-8.In comparison to the Anton-8, the Dora does have a poorer instantaneous turn, & its rate of roll is slightly lower, & of course, it posesses a lighter armament.

All in all, I think it will prove an excellent foe for the P-51, especially under 27k - just as the Jagdlieger who flew the Dora believed her to be.

On a final note, what do you guys think if the Fw 190D-11, D-12 or D-13 were offered as a lower perk point alternative to the Ta-152H? Those who wish to save up points for the Ta 152 could do so, but those who want a less "enhanced" uber-190 could choose a D-11/-12 or -13.For less perk points you could receive a faster Dora with more firepower.It wouldn't have the same hi-alt performance of the Ta 152, but would be superior at lower alts.That of course might be a problem as many would choose a D-11/-12/-13 instead of the Ta 152 as most combat takes place <30k in AH (alt monkeys excepted, of course).

This could dilute the attraction of spending perk points on the Ta 152, but I'd be interested to know what some of you think.

[This message has been edited by C_R_Caldwell (edited 03-03-2001).]

[Nath-BDP]

I've been advocating a D-12 for a long time...

[R4M]

huhmm......nowhere I've said that the D9 should turn MUCH worse than A8. I remember someone saying that as the tail was moved farther aft, the plane turned worse. But I have not said that A8 had a markedly better turn than D9 in any moment.

I know it has a slightly lower wingloading, D9 is 300lbs lighter than A8, and has better powerloading too.

The plane dived better than A8, accelerated and climbed better, was faster and had better hi alt performance. But in the turning, it should be quite bad. Bad instantaneous turn, as you say (as I meant...he who turns more than 90š a Fw190A8 is not in his senses   ), and bad sustained turnrate, you say than better than A8, ok...but VERY bad still.



[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-03-2001).]

[Naudet]

In fact we can only hope that Hitechcreations, model the D9 right.

Which would mean we would have a "normal WEP", this is running the engine at max RPM and allowed pressure without MW50, with that the D9 should reach 426 mph@20K.
Than there must be a key to turn the MW50 on (Or special WEP) which will boost the Engine to 2240PS and will give the D) 440mph@20K.

All who refer to the charts i posted here long ago, curve #1 shows the speeds for the normal WEP (which is the translation of Not- und Reserveleistung) and curve #2 is for special WEP (Speciella Not- und Reserveleistung) or MW50.
Note to the charts i posted, the plane weighted about 4250 kg with ETC 504 under the fusalage.

To the turning ability of the D9, in every source i found it was stated that the D9 was able of turning tighter than the FW190 A-Series, and what is much more interesting even better than the Bf109 G-Series.
Also in the book "FW190 in Combat" from Alfred Price, is a statement of a german Pilot that said, he could turn with the D9 as tight as with the A8 without losing its Speed advantage over the Yaks, in the A8 he had to reduce speed to minimun turning speed, to stay behind a Yak, but with the D9 he could do the same turn at higher speed, and without losing the speed.

[Nashwan]

So the Dora is faster than the Tempest, climbs better, turns better, rolls better and probably dives better. Which one should be perked?

[R4M]

   

Originally posted by Nashwan:
So the Dora is faster than the Tempest, climbs better, turns better, rolls better and probably dives better. Which one should be perked?

LOL! the tempest...it has four hispanos    

Now seriously ,stop it because you are completely wrong.

 First of all, we have discussed that the D9 will be faster, better accelerator ,better turner and better climber than the Fw190A8. none of this things is hard to achieve     because the a8 is one of the slowest accelerators, worse turners and climbers on the game, only better than the P47 in that regard. The previous discussion says nothing about D9s compared with Tempest...so hold your breath and read a bit more    

Lets start from the acceleration thing. Please can you post some numbers on acceleration and climbrate of the tempest?...because all the things I've read quote this plane as one of the best acceleratonrs and climbers under 10k of the whole war, while the D9 even with MW50 was only on an average level    


lets follow with this affirmation: "the 190D9 will turn better than the Tempest".

Whoah. No way, not by far. The Tempest will be able to outturn a La7, go figure a Fw190D9.

FYI, the wingloading of a FULL LOADED Tempest is:
13000lbs/302sq.feet=43lbs/sq. feet (aprox).

The wingloading of a FULL LOADED (10500lbs) FW190D9 is:
10500lbs/198sq. feet= 53lbs/sq. feet (aprox).

Go figure what will be the wingloading of an empty Tempest (I think it was some 9000lbs?...then the wingloading is a WOOPING 29.8lbs/sq.feet).

Far from being a bad turner, the tempest will be one of the BEST TURNERS in this game's latewar planesets. And of course it will turn all around the 190D9 (and in a lesser degree, around the P51) with no problem as you can see    


About the dive thing...the Hawker Tempest is a plane 2000/3000 lbs heavier than the D9 in any configuration you choose (empty-lightly loaded-medium loaded-full loaded)...how in the earth do you want us to belief that the D9 is better diver than a plane 2500lbs heavier than it?!.

 Far from it, the Tempest will be a VERY good diver, and with the low drag laminar flow wing it will be a WONDERFUL 0-g accelerator and E-retainer.

And finally, it can load more than 2000lbs of bombs and rockets, it has four hispanos, and it is as fast as the D9 on the deck. The D9 has two mausers and two 13mm MGs (the MGs would do better out of the plane, frankly),and the chance to load one 500kg bomb...and that's it.

The MW50 D9 can roll better than the Tempest and it is fastest at almost all altitudes. Ok, you are right on that    

Sorry buddy, the MW50 Fw190D9 is Mustang's equal...but this thing (tempest) is a MONSTER. (perk monster     )



[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-03-2001).]

[Naudet]

In the mock combat tests flown at farnborough between the old FW190A3 and the Tempest, about turning the following was stated:

"The Turnradius is nearly equal, when there is an advantage at all it is in favour to the Tempest."

According to the British sources the test had to be abondomed due to probs with the engine of the FW190.

Cause the FW190D9 could turn better than the A, it can also turn better than the Tempest.

Also this mock combat say about climbrate:
Above 1500m the FW190A has the better climbrate.

Now the D9 was a much better climber than the A, and so it beats the Tempest in this point even more than the A-Series FW.


Turning radius is not all about wingloading, there is no single factor that makes an exellent turner.

[R4M]

 

Originally posted by Naudet:
In the mock combat tests flown at farnborough between the old FW190A3 and the Tempest, about turning the following was stated:

"The Turnradius is nearly equal, when there is an advantage at all it is in favour to the Tempest."

my god. A3 was almost 1400lbs lighter than A8, so it was 1100lbs lighter than the dora. You WOULD expect a 1100lb lighter plane to turn "a bit" better, dont you?.

I challenge you to explain me how a plane with a wingloading of 42lb/hp at full load and 29.80lb/hp empty does turn worse than a plane with 53lb/hp at full load and 37lb/hp empty.


FYI the Fw190A3 had a empty weight of 2950kg (6490lbs) and a full load of 3950kg (8960 lbs). Empty and loaded wingloadings are 32.7lb/hp and 43.8lb/hp respectively. As you see, quite close to the Tempest's numbers, here is the reason why the A3 could almost turn with the Tempest (although as we see the 190 was still outturned).
 
But there is no way that the D9, a plane much heavier than the A3, could do the same.

Of course, I'm open to another theory. If you bring a good explanation, then I'll believe you, but as it is the facts are quite clear: the D9 couldnt outturn a Tempest, (nor a mustang, nor practically anything but 190A8 or a P47) BY FAR.  

[edit][ironic mode ON]BTW I heard that the Bf109G2 could outturn Tempests, typhoons, P51Ds,etc...so that means that the 109G10 DOES turn better than the Tempest, Typhoon, P51D, etc, right?...no matter that it is a plane 900 lbs heavier, right?  [/ironic mode off]  


[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-04-2001).]

[juzz]

Pro Tempest V: Dive, speed below 8k, turn, and four "Hispano Mk V Turbolaser Ultra" overclocked to fire at 12.5Hz  

Pro Fw 190D-9: Climb, speed above 20k, rollrate and paintjob