Author Topic: Dora charts  (Read 1603 times)

Glunz

  • Guest
Dora charts
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2001, 08:36:00 AM »
R4M, what can I say...if you love your girlfirend as much as you love D-9, she is one happy woman  

So, in WB we had 1900 hp Dora ? Bah  

A 2240hp D-9 would be quite a plane, very interesting opponent for Allied planes.

Anyway, I prefer the A-8 looks, kind of sentimental thing

Offline mx22

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Dora charts
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2001, 09:21:00 AM »
<g>"best propelled fighter" I think is a bit an overstatement. Wasn't it you who said that SpitXIV is too good for AH? Also, SpitXXII was produced and equiped with RAF squadron before the war's end, didn't flew any operational sorties though (pretty much the same story for Ta-152 though)

mx22


 
Quote
Originally posted by R4M:
Niklas...what can I say....I'm stunned.

The plane you describe is with no doubt the best propelled fighter of world war II and by a wide margin.

Personally I'd want to see the non-MW50, 1900hp Fw190D9 unperked and the Mw50 Fw190D9 perked in Aces High. Both of them...

Man, you really have surprised me...   one doesnt wake up every morning to discover that his favorite fighter is the best that ever flew and fought in WWII  


Offline flakbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 867
      • http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6
Dora charts
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2001, 09:28:00 AM »
Nashwan check this image and tell me it's a Tempest Mk V series I:
 www.hitechcreations.com/pyro/tempest.jpg

The Tempest V series I aircraft used the Hispano Mk II guns, while the II series had the Hispano Mk V guns. Our Tempest is a Tempest Mk V II series with a Sabre IIB series engine and uses Hispano Mk V short-barreled guns.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb

 

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
Dora charts
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2001, 09:34:00 AM »
  glunz...single right now...so the D9 has all my inconditional love  

 
Quote
Originally posted by mx22:
<g>"best propelled fighter" I think is a bit an overstatement. Wasn't it you who said that SpitXIV is too good for AH? Also, SpitXXII was produced and equiped with RAF squadron before the war's end, didn't flew any operational sorties though (pretty much the same story for Ta-152 though)

mx22


 


As I said in the Tempest case, there is a difference between a MA environment and the historic one...but then I thought that the MW50 Fw190D9 was a plane that did 380mph@SL and 448mph@23000feet,and turned and accelerated only a bit better than Fw190A8...so, like toejam  

Turns out that the Fw190D9 with Mw50 seems to be a plane with a speed of 395mph@SL, and god-knows-what-much at 23000feet (But a lot  <G> ), while turning better than the Me109G6 and rolling as usual. This plane would be much more dangerous for the arena than any SpitXIV, and by far.

That is the reason why I say that the non-Mw50, 1900hp Fw190D9 as non perk will be OK (it is a pretty even match for the P51D), the Spitfire XIV as moderately low-to-medium cost perk, the Tempest V as medium to high cost perk, and the MW50 190D9 as medium to high cost perk, but somewhat more expensive than the Tempest.

...and the Me262 will be a very high cost perk  


About Spit XXI, quote my words "one doesnt wake up every morning to discover that his favorite fighter is the best that ever flew and fought in WWII"

The Spit XXI did see no combat...still I think that the MW50 D9 would be a better plane for the historical needs than the Spit XXI (but not for AH Main arena use   )

and BTW, as said 1000 times in this forums...the Ta152H-0 and Ta152H-1 DID see combat. Ask Willi Reschke, he was a Ta152 ace...

How many pilots achieved the ace status aboard a Spit XXI in WWII?  


[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-05-2001).]

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
Dora charts
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2001, 09:45:00 AM »
The Spit 21 did see combat. They sank at least 1 German submarine, how many subs did the Dora sink?  
The screenshots are of a Tempest V series II, but that doesn't mean the perforamnce figures will be. The Tempest V series I, with extra drag, an engine producing around 370hp less, did 378mph at sea level. I just hope the Tempest AH is introducing will do quite a bit more.

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
Dora charts
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2001, 09:48:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan:
The Spit 21 did see combat. They sank at least 1 German submarine, how many subs did the Dora sink?   .

LOL  

Offline mx22

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Dora charts
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2001, 10:41:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by R4M:

and BTW, as said 1000 times in this forums...the Ta152H-0 and Ta152H-1 DID see combat. Ask Willi Reschke, he was a Ta152 ace...

Every German test plane tested late in war and that had armoment, had a chance to get kills. Every German unit converting onto a new design had opportunity to fly operational sorties even before the end of training. Not so with Allied designs, which were tested and fitted into squadrons in "safe" environment. So let's not bring "kills" into the discussion. Btw, I might be wrong, but I think there was 1 operational squadron with F-8s in US before the end of war with Japan. I'm not saying SpitXXI or F-8 should be used in Special arena, but neither should you assume that Ta-152 belongs. How many of them acctually reached operational units and were flyable? I think number was less then 50...

P.S. You are right about "flew and fought", I didn't didn't notice it

mx22

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
Dora charts
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2001, 10:58:00 AM »
Jg301 was completely transformed into Ta152H, and was sent into battle as a Ta152 jagdgeschwader...was a plane that made operational aces. Was a plane that arrived very late to the fighting scene, that is true, but none the less arrived.

That qualifies the Ta152H as a fully operational, fighting fighter. Not a prototype, not by far.

He162, on the other side, was a plane that saw combat (killed and was killed by tempests), but was NOT operational. Some geschwaders were fully converted to He162 for V-day, but that doenst mean that it was an operational fighter in WWII.

IMHO same can be said about P51H, F8F, F7F, etc...
I dont say that fighters wich saw combat or not should be modelled or not...but to start doing it will open a big can of worms...you know, Do335,He162, Ta152C (THAT is a bad prettythang  ), 109K14, Me262A with Mk103, even Go229...would be planes with as much right to own to this sim than a p51h, F8F, Spit XXI...bringing us to a WWII '46 scenario faster than giving us an early war planeset.

Somewhere we should mark a line of non-crossing for planes available to be modelled...and I think that it should the line should be marked allowing planes that saw OPERATIONAL combat (in regular units, as operational planes), but letting outside planes that never saw combat, or achieved kills in a prototype or pre-operational stage.

This is my humble opinion, of course   but this is getting out of topic, we dont need another flamewar about P51H, spits XXI and Ta152Cs  

Back on topic.......Still I want to know about the 360mph on the Fw190A8!!  .

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
Dora charts
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2001, 11:25:00 AM »
A squadron of Spit 21s did see operational service. They were declared operational in early 45 and flew offensive patrols over German territory, carrying out ground attacks. They didn't ever see the Luftwaffe though.

Offline mx22

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Dora charts
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2001, 11:31:00 AM »
Ram, goign back of topic

There was only 1 confirmed ace on Ta-152. Where did you found the rest?

Difference between F8F, Spit21 and other Allied planes you mentioned and Do335,He162, Ta152C, 109K14, Me262A with Mk103 and rest, is that Allied planes had acctually existed in more then 1 plane, more many of them were starting to go into service at the end of war. Not so with German counterparts.

P.S. Just to finish this off, I'm not syaing that every Allied prototype should be modeled just because it existed when Ta-152 came around. Only those that actually were developed to at least the same degree or even better then it.

mx22

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Dora charts
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2001, 12:23:00 PM »
Nashwan is correct.

The Spitfire F.Mk.21 entered squadron service in March 1945 and flew offensive sories over German territory.  The Gloster Meteor F.MkIII also flew offensive sweeps over German territory.

Should we Allied fans be denied our end war toys just because the Luftwaffe didn't have enough aircraft to give our newest operational fighters something to shoot down and thus get that all important air-to-air kill?

I say no, we should not be denied!!!

The Spitfire 21 and Meteor III are just as valid as the Ta152H-1.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
Dora charts
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2001, 04:09:00 PM »
S!

The Dora without MW-50 provides the standard 357Mph at S.L., 426 mph at best alt. performance which you see in WB and most other Sims.  This is the performance the Dora had from the time the squadrons went operational in the early fall of '44.  The Luftwaffe had intended to equip the plane with MW-50 but there were just not enough of the kits to go around.

Starting in late December of '44, ALL the operational Doras were retro-fitted with MW-50 and the newly manufactured models came with the equipment installed.  This gave a performance of 378mph at S.L. with the ETC 504 bombrack attached, (all Doras were expected to perform tactical support missions and therefore generally they flew with the racks)  and 382mph with the rack not attached.  Best speed at alt. was 440 with the rack, and 448 without it.

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
Dora charts
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2001, 04:41:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S!

The Dora without MW-50 provides the standard 357Mph at S.L., 426 mph at best alt. performance which you see in WB and most other Sims.  This is the performance the Dora had from the time the squadrons went operational in the early fall of '44.  The Luftwaffe had intended to equip the plane with MW-50 but there were just not enough of the kits to go around.

Starting in late December of '44, ALL the operational Doras were retro-fitted with MW-50 and the newly manufactured models came with the equipment installed.  This gave a performance of 378mph at S.L. with the ETC 504 bombrack attached, (all Doras were expected to perform tactical support missions and therefore generally they flew with the racks)  and 382mph with the rack not attached.  Best speed at alt. was 440 with the rack, and 448 without it.

Yes that was the usual data......but look at naudet's charts...they tell a WHOLE different stories  

357mph@SL , 426@21600feet are the figures for the 1750hp rated Ju213A1 190D9s.

According to that chart, and according to Niklas, the 378mph@SL, 448mph@21000feet belong to a 1900hp rated Ju213A1 190d9  

MW50 figures seem to be 395mph@SL  


Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Dora charts
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2001, 05:27:00 PM »
RAM, don't forget that those different curves were also for 87 octane fuel and 100 octane fuel, which can significantly effect performance as well.

Realize that your quoting the 100 octane fuel curve as well.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Dora charts
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2001, 05:53:00 PM »
vermillion, look again at the engine performance chart in this thread and youŽll see that it say 2100hp with B4 fuel+mw50.

niklas