Which is a better plane?

[Nemisis]

2nd and 3rd don't contradict. 1st, I simply mean that I use the energy from the dive to get above my opponent just enough to let me make a pass. If I tried to go any further than that, I'd get beaten real fast.

But agreed, lets call an end to this.

[BnZs]

The Dora turning *substantially* worse than the A5 is one of those AHII urban legends. Certainly the sustained turn *rate* is as good or better.

i usually try to go for the quickness advantage or high speed handling advantage of the 190s ...

both seem a bit underrepresented from the accounts i've read, but at least there there ...

funny things about the FWs is with the models represented and how, one would get the impression that ...

1) the 190As got worse as they were improved ...

2) that the dora turned worse than the 190As, which is the opposite of observations of the testers and operating pilots.

go figure ...

[thorsim]

well i tend not to flat turn anything so i wouldn't know, i was just going on the impressions in here ...

The Dora turning *substantially* worse than the A5 is one of those AHII urban legends. Certainly the sustained turn *rate* is as good or better.

[BnZs]

well i tend not to flat turn anything so i wouldn't know, i was just going on the impressions in here ...

Rate and radius come out in non-flat turns too. The turns just don't form neat little circles anymore LOL

[Saurdaukar]

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[Saurdaukar]

The Dora turning *substantially* worse than the A5 is one of those AHII urban legends. Certainly the sustained turn *rate* is as good or better.

The 190 line follows the same upgrade path as all other birds.  It gave up maneuverability for acceleration and top end.  Im not sure how you are defining "substantially" but here are the numbers:

A5 Turn Radius, No Flaps: 787ft
D9 Turn Radius, No Flaps: 846ft

A5 Turn Radius, Full Flaps: 584ft
D9 Turn Radius, Full Flaps: 627ft

For purposes of comparison; the P-51D's full flap turn radius is 633ft.

Low-alt engine performance isnt as far off as you'd think, either.  While the Dora maintains an acceleration advantage, the A5 outclimbs the D9 under military to about 6,500ft and, under WEP, the Dora maintains a slight advantage and a brief trade off occurs at about 4,000ft.

That is, keeping in mind, that the numbers are from tests with MA default "full" loadouts; including the outboard MGFF's in the A5; which no one takes, anyway.  The reduction in weight would probably improve the A5's position by a good 5%.

It's also superior in rate of roll, which is a highly undervalued asset.  I dont have numbers for it; but I'd bet that the A5 has the fastest maximum rate of roll in the game at nearly all speeds; with the Jug perhaps closing in at extremely high speeds (475kt+ dive, for example).

[pervert]

Low-alt engine performance isnt as far off as you'd think, either.  While the Dora maintains an acceleration advantage, the A5 outclimbs the D9 under military to about 6,500ft and, under WEP, the Dora maintains a slight advantage and a brief trade off occurs at about 4,000ft..

Fact is for MA being nearly there for the A5 isn't enough to keep it alive in terms of recovering its speed for the next fight, acceleration is its biggest weak point, the climb point it is more than certain that in MA both partys will be using wep given how long it lasts on these planes, so any significant advantage it has under military is useless more or less.

[Saurdaukar]

Fact is for MA being nearly there for the A5 isn't enough to keep it alive in terms of recovering its speed for the next fight, acceleration is its biggest weak point, the climb point it is more than certain that in MA both partys will be using wep given how long it lasts on these planes, so any significant advantage it has under military is useless more or less.

No doubt the D9 can recover E more quickly after the fight; but I'd rather be in the A5 *for* the fight. 

[BnZs]

By "substantial", I mean enough to make up for the energy advantages of the Dora or that the Dora won't be able to get on the A5's six and turn with it for the kill, unlike fighting say a Spitfire, where a crazy amount of lead prediction is required to get a snapshot off and avoid getting stuck in lag.

While the A-5 is the best turner, this isn't saying much, since about the only fighter it really out-turns are other Fws. Full flaps numbers are misleading on Fw's because you have to get so bog slow to use them, the fight is probably already lost. So you've got two planes that are basically going to be out-turned by 90% of the MA. One of them has fantastic engine performance, the other one is midwarrish in performance. The two 13MMs make the Dora more lethal fighter to fighter IMHO than the A5, even with the (flawed) outboard cannons. Which I always take BTW, its 12 seconds of firing time and extra rocks ARE extra rocks.

I like the A5 too, but flying it in the LWMA is a labor of love, its about having fun and "what it is", not what it can do.

[thorsim]

Rate and radius come out in non-flat turns too. The turns just don't form neat little circles anymore LOL

i am sure it does, but when you are yo yo or lag rolling it is difficult to compare turn rate or radius with the the other guy who is in a flat turn ...

The 190 line follows the same upgrade path as all other birds.  It gave up maneuverability for acceleration and top end.  Im not sure how you are defining "substantially" but here are the numbers:

A5 Turn Radius, No Flaps: 787ft
D9 Turn Radius, No Flaps: 846ft

A5 Turn Radius, Full Flaps: 584ft
D9 Turn Radius, Full Flaps: 627ft

For purposes of comparison; the P-51D's full flap turn radius is 633ft.

Low-alt engine performance isnt as far off as you'd think, either.  While the Dora maintains an acceleration advantage, the A5 outclimbs the D9 under military to about 6,500ft and, under WEP, the Dora maintains a slight advantage and a brief trade off occurs at about 4,000ft.

That is, keeping in mind, that the numbers are from tests with MA default "full" loadouts; including the outboard MGFF's in the A5; which no one takes, anyway.  The reduction in weight would probably improve the A5's position by a good 5%.

It's also superior in rate of roll, which is a highly undervalued asset.  I dont have numbers for it; but I'd bet that the A5 has the fastest maximum rate of roll in the game at nearly all speeds; with the Jug perhaps closing in at extremely high speeds (475kt+ dive, for example).

it seems to me that unless the weight to power ratio of the engine itself got worse, which i doubt.  the a7 and later 190s had a lighter wing design than did the a6s and earlier so one would think that the maneuverability improved, that was the consensus of the pilots, although testing data is elusive ...

re the dora, the extended length apparently helped the turn stability thus making it a "better" turner that at least it's contemporary As, or at least that was the impression of the pilots who were actually using them in combat.
this was noted by the pilots whenever they lengthened the 190s BTW  
 
tough to sort out though as the specific models are not listed in AH so there could be some discrepancies.  it is odd why HTC chooses the models it does and in the case of many of the planes it would be nice to know which specific model we are talking about ...

[BnZs]

Easy...the Fw lineup in AHII have something that will cover early/midwar, a late-war Monster (two if you count the 152 as a member of the family...I don't) a "battering ram" and a dedicated ground attack craft. That's really alot of models for one plane family. Its really only us dedicated "fans" who want a more effective radial-engine model or two for the LW, instead of just take the Dora/152.

 
tough to sort out though as the specific models are not listed in AH so there could be some discrepancies.  it is odd why HTC chooses the models it does and in the case of many of the planes it would be nice to know which specific model we are talking about ...

[Ardy123]

Not an expert in any of these planes, but this always does good for me:
If he's talking air to air, then for 109s: G14 for starters, and as your gunnery imporves, the K4.

I wouldn't recomend any late war 109 to someone just starting out, no way. I would instead recommend a bf-109 g2. To be 'good' in a LW 109, you really have to know how to manage the engine & stall.

[grizz441]

Depends what you want to do.  If you're looking to compete in a turning situation then the 109s are your best bet.  The 190 is more of an E fighter and selective turn fighter.  If you look at max potentials of Kills/Sortie, the Fw190 has much more capability in that regard.  It comes down to deciding what you need in the tower to be most effective in the fight you have selected.

[pervert]

No doubt the D9 can recover E more quickly after the fight; but I'd rather be in the A5 *for* the fight. 

Well that comes down to personal preference I guess 
I thought you had posted quoting part of the debate between me and nemisis? 

[gyrene81]

I wouldn't recomend any late war 109 to someone just starting out, no way. I would instead recommend a bf-109 g2. To be 'good' in a LW 109, you really have to know how to manage the engine & stall.

For someone "just starting out" in German planes...109F4 would be my pick...but then I'm pretty new compared to many in AH...it turns better than any of the G models, less tendency to stall, decent speed, decent roll rate (for a 109) and dive recovery is easier in it...if only it had the same engine as the G-6 or 10...




I've been wondering what Thorsim has been wondering...for instance why the 190-A5 and not the 190-A6...and why not the 190-A2 for an "early war" model? Production numbers maybe?