Author Topic: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther  (Read 7350 times)

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2010, 10:37:44 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:06:53 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline hammer

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2010, 10:48:07 AM »
Operation Cobra was part of the Normady campaign. It was the American breakout from Normandy. Saying the 76mm Sherman was used in Normandy is not the same as saying it was used on D-Day.

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Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2010, 10:53:20 AM »
Operation Cobra was part of the Normady campaign. It was the American breakout from Normandy. Saying the 76mm Sherman was used in Normandy is not the same as saying it was used on D-Day.

Regards,

Hammer

Go back and read his posts, he is saying D-Day.  Besides I am not the ignorant one here, I gave dates and book references. Operation Cobra was almost 2 months AFTER June 6th.

Offline BigPlay

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2010, 10:59:48 AM »
According to Zaloga in his book, all of the M4s initially deployed in Normandy throughout June of 1944 were the 75mm equipped Shermans (pages 129-131), while the 76mm wasn't deployed until July 1944 when some First Army units started to accept them (page 166).

If there were 100 or so 76mm Shermans sitting in the invasion ships, all they did was take up valuable space.


ack-ack

take up valuable space? What space? Space for more 75mm Shermans? All the reference material I have read say the first Shermans to be fitted with 76mm guns was introduced into the production lines in February of 1944. Now considering that the Americans were stockpiling 75mm armed Shermans long before the 76mm came on line. It would make sense that only a small number of 76mm Shermans were mixed in with the standard 75mm Shermans for the D-Day landings.

Now ...again speculation. I would have to say the the allies knew they would have trouble with the German tanks, why up-gun a Sherman with a British 17lber gun and with a 76mm gun if your current tanks could do the job. The first documented action for the 76mm armed Shermans was in July of that year, a  few weeks past the landings. Since the Germans didn't deploy their panzer divisions for 2 weeks after the landing and some up to 4 weeks it would make sense that no real armor battles took place with the 76mm Shermans until operation Cobra. That being said below is more information on the 76mm Shermans indicating that indeed there were 76mm Shermans available for the Normandy landings. There is more information out there that supports the fact there were 76mm Shermans that landed in Normandy then not. All you have to do is look.

Quote;

Sherman tank with 76mm gun:
To increase firepower the Ordnance Department developed the 76mm gun M1 and M1A1, starting in July 1942. Tests showed that the existing M4 series turret was too small to accommodate the extra length of this weapon and the turret of the T20/T23 medium tank was adopted and suitably modified. The 76mm gun installation was standardised and introduced in production lines from February 1944 and vehicles so fitted were available in time for the Normandy landings and subsequent combat in NW Europe. Suffix '(76mm)' indicated vehicles with this gun. A modified 76mm gun M1A1C or M1A2 with muzzle-brake was later introduced.


Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2010, 11:03:03 AM »
Look not a single page number or book title?


No page numbers? I really want to know about the Jentz book that talks about shermans. Are you sure you read them?  Really sounds like you have never cracked a good book on the Sherman.


Offline BigPlay

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2010, 11:14:41 AM »
Go back and read his posts, he is saying D-Day.  Besides I am not the ignorant one here, I gave dates and book references. Operation Cobra was almost 2 months AFTER June 6th.

Yes read back, who other then ground troops did any Sherman that landed on D-Day fight. No German panzer divisions were there for the Shermans to fight. Operation Cobra was scheduled for July 18th, but weather delayed it until the 24th. You gave me book pages to one book . I have posted many other internet sources. How many people here have the book you are quoting from, my guess is very few. All anyone interested in this topic has to do is google it. They will find many many reference sources to anything from board gamer web sites to online WW2 forums that all indicate that in fact 76mm armed shermans were in Normandy . Did any see combat until operation Cobra? No! But no mention anywhere does it say that had to specifically ship out 76mm Shermans just for operation Cobra or hold any back until then.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 11:29:41 AM by BigPlay »

Offline BigPlay

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2010, 11:27:09 AM »
No page numbers? I really want to know about the Jentz book that talks about shermans. Are you sure you read them?  Really sounds like you have never cracked a good book on the Sherman.




I just gave a number of internet related information on the topic and all you can do is keep referring to Jentz. I have a job and am not at home but only a few hours of the day. So I haven't pulled up the page number of said book, big deal. My world doesn't stop to run home and look up pages just for you  so you can then tell me the author doesn't know what he's talking about. Like I said, the information is all over the internet and I have posted the quotes that I found. Now your one book is all I seen out of you. I have over 300 books on WW2 many are out of production and are rather rare. Now is everything in these books gospel? No, many contradict themselves so when I see the same thing written over and over again and then see 1 guy who says different who am I to believe?


I have a business that revolves around aviation, naval and armor from ww1 to present. I have spoke with many authors at book signings and at symposiums. I have maybe 40 signed books as well. So I have read a few books and have spent the better part of my adult life with my nose in a book or attending a related event. I also have a very extensive autograph collection many received in person. So I have also engaged in conversation regarding first hand accounts of many a veteran. I have spoke to nobody in regards to the Shermans in question so have no first hand accounts of this topic, but then again neither have you. I can say this . WW2 history has long been a hobby of mine and has become a business. My passion for the subject has afforded me more insight then the average follower . All I can do is post what information I have come across. Maybe instead of trying to force someone to produce the evidence wanted you should simply search for it with an open mind yourself. As stated.... if anyone wanted the truth all they would have to do is google it and read for themselves what has to be said regarding the topic. All of them can't be wrong.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 11:43:38 AM by BigPlay »

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2010, 11:28:02 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:07:44 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2010, 11:30:05 AM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:08:25 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline BigPlay

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2010, 11:45:01 AM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:08:40 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2010, 11:55:41 AM »
and is he the end all on Sherman history? I doubt it. I also never said I was an authority, I was quoting many different sources not one.

He has far more credibility then you, that's a fact.  Bad sources and then not supply pages numbers for other supposed sources. I am still waiting on the Jentz page numbers and books.

At least supply those, you mentioned them. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 11:57:39 AM by GtoRA2 »

Offline BigPlay

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2010, 12:16:13 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:05:37 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2010, 12:21:02 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:04:42 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline BigPlay

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2010, 12:46:46 PM »
See Rules #2, #4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:04:18 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2010, 12:49:35 PM »
See Rules #2, #4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:04:29 PM by Skuzzy »