Author Topic: 20mm for F6F  (Read 1257 times)

Offline jmccaul

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2000, 09:16:00 AM »
I don't think you should go down this road because what your basically doing is saying a plane can have any armament it wants provided it fits in the wing.

Taking a spit for example it could have 8x 0.303s , 4x 0.303 + 2x 20mm, 2x 0.5 + 2x 20mm or 4x 20mm.

And i dare say a lot of planes will have similar options and the truth is the F6F would lose more than it would gain if it got it's 2x 20mm  with 4 cannon spits etc. flying round.  

Offline RAM

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2000, 09:28:00 AM »
Fw190A8 with 2x30mm Mk103s comes to mind...

 

Offline Fishu

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2000, 10:38:00 AM »
I am sure that alot LW planes would lose alot also with new weapon loadout options...

but noo... everyone is against that, but they still talk about having allied planes with similar settings.

I don't find any logic in this.
If LW planes are not allowed, why would allied planes be?

Come on guys, get thinking this issue; either you're against LW and allieds different weapon loadouts or you're for them.
Not just "LW does not need, but allies do"

Offline J_A_B

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2000, 11:50:00 AM »
First of all, I did not say whether I personally wanted to see 20mm's on Hellcats.....My post stated that I think F6F's will have them as an option.  

Second, there WERE day-fighter F6F's with the 20mm's.  Not a whole lot, but they did exist, and probably in greater numbers than the cannnon hog.  If I had a scanner I would scan you the evidence.

If you would like added armament options for the JU-88, then ask for them.  I for one wouldn't mind one bit seeing more options.  It would give the Axis planeset something equivelant of B-25H's and the like.

I don't know how familiar you are with the F6F.   It is NOT a late-war top of the line fighter like the other USAAF fighters.  It is a mid-war design.  It turns somewhere between the Spit IX and the ME-109F.  Its sustained climb is about the same as the F4U, probably somewhat worse.  It is dog slow, slower than the ME-109F.  It also has a poor roll rate.  The N1K2 can outperform it in ALL areas under 15000 feet.  The F6F was designed for killing Zeros, which it does very well.  Unfortunately, the arena isn't full of Zeros.  Don't worry, this plane is NOT going to dominate the arena.  

The 20mm option wouldn't upset play balance a bit, and would increase the effectiveness of the F6F.  That is why I think it will be an option.

Personally, I'll live either way.

J_A_B



[This message has been edited by J_A_B (edited 09-24-2000).]

Offline Fishu

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2000, 12:05:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B:
The 20mm option wouldn't upset play balance a bit, and would increase the effectiveness of the F6F.  That is why I think it will be an option.

It wouldn't upset balance either if Ju-88 would have it's 1000kg bomb options, 13mm gun replacing 7.92mm in the ventral turret.
Fw190A-8 having all those options it had.

I believe people has asked it enough many times by now...

Offline StSanta

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2000, 04:28:00 PM »
Verm, because it is an abberation. It's somewhat non historical, in that most F6G's dinnae have it.

Sure, add them, but then let them only fly at night.

It's taking the role of one plane and utilizing it in another. Like with the F4U-C, which was a ground pounder but in AH rules the skies in terms of K/D ratio.

If there are any errors or abberations in AH, I'd like to see 'um removed to more truly represent "real life" numbers and roles. If that means 190 gets only 2 20's, fine with me.

Just not sure I want a chog equivalent abberation more. I believe we both know how it'll be flown, right?  .



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Offline J_A_B

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2000, 06:12:00 PM »
"It wouldn't upset balance either if Ju-88 would have it's 1000kg bomb options, 13mm gun replacing 7.92mm in the ventral turret.
Fw190A-8 having all those options it had"

--Fishu

Yep...and I agree that thoose should be options, too.  

Really, though, a F6F with the 20mm's wouldn't be much more effective than a normal F6F.  It would just be a different option.  

FYI, F6F performs a lot like the Macci 202--definately not a high-class performer.  Instead, the big advantages of the F6F were stability and ease of operation from carriers.

J_A_B

Offline Vermillion

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2000, 07:13:00 PM »
I really hate arguing for the side I'm against but here goes.

Santa, your already repeating the "Luftbabble" that the others have started without doing any research.

The F6F-XN (X= 3's & 5's) aircraft were not "abberations".

Of the total of 12,200 F6F's produce, almost 1,700 were F6F-XN's (about 1,400 -5N's and the rest -3N's) .  There was also according to the information on the Navy site, that states that some of the straight F6F-5's (non night fighters) built from late 1944 onwards were also armed with the x2 20mm + x4 .50's, but it doesn't state a number. So I will use the number >1,700.

Now, How many Fw190A8's were built with x2 30mm Mk108's, x2 20mm MG151's, and carried Wgr21's ? Or how many Me109F4's were built with 20mm gondola's? Or G10's armed with the 30mm Mk108 and the x2 20mm gondola's? I may be wrong, but I don't think there were even a total of 1,700 G10's produce at all (I do know there were only about 700 K4's produced).

So how is the F6F-5N's with 20mm's any more of an "aberration" than the Luftwaffe aircraft I just mentioned?

Now, I agree that the version with x6 .50's is the representative model. However as I have pointed out, we have many Luftwaffe aircraft that have most if not all possible armament options, even the "non-representative" ones.

I'm just saying that you have to judge on the same basis. If one type gets all "the goodies", so should the others.

 
Quote
Like with the F4U-C, which was a ground pounder

Ah... now I'm starting to see that your just repeating what you see on this board about American aircraft, without doing your own research   Nothing wrong with that but be careful, because alot of it is bias'd and not true (ie. alot of the stuff from your historical squadron compatriots   ).

The F4U-1C was not designed as a "ground pounder". It may have served in that role somewhat, and it certainly excels in that role in AH, but it was not designed to be that way.  

The F4U-1C was merely the first fighter (and one of the actual few designs that reached the combat zone before the end of the war) designed to a new Navy philosophy on armament.

While the US Army was a proponent of the .50 heavy machine gun, The US Navy had decided by early to mid 1944 that the 20mm hispano armed aircraft were far superior to the .50's armed aircraft, and that future designs and production of aircraft would be armed exclusively with the 20mm's.

Might I suggest the book:

"Report of Joint Fighter Conference, NAS Patuxent River, MD 16-23 Oct. 1944"
Edited by Francis Dean (also the author of "America's Hundred Thousand")
ISBN #: 0-7643-0404-6

There is a chapter in it that talks about the Navy's decision in detail, and how they planned to implement it. In fact the Army representatives argued in great detail with the Navy personnel at this conference on the issue.

The only reason that more x4 20mm armed Navy fighters didnt' see combat was merely a problem of availability and a change over in production.

But the 20mm Hellcats were there, and in appreciable numbers.

Personally, I don't care what the Hellcats will be armed with, I won't be flying any of them since they do not fit my flying style tastes.

I just see them all targets.  

However I think we do need to use the same standards for possible armament options across the board, whether its American, Japanese, Russian, Bristish, or Luftwaffe.


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Vermillion
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Offline RAM

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2000, 07:56:00 PM »

Perfectly right, Verm. Bring the F6F5-N. With hispanos. With Radar. WIth Radar weight. With Radar drag. Its perfectly okay with me.

What's not okay with me is to put a daylight fighter with the F6F5-N weapons but not its drawbacks.



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]

Offline Toad

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2000, 08:02:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta:
Like with the F4U-C, which was a ground pounder but in AH rules the skies in terms of K/D ratio.

<sniff>  <sniff>

Is this that same old rotten bait?

Santa are you going run the k/d numbers of the F4 against the two FW's, removing ground targets from the counts?

Or just go ahead and admit you are trolling?  

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Offline Hamish

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2000, 08:44:00 PM »
   
Quote
Originally posted by RAM:

Perfectly right, Verm. Bring the F6F5-N. With hispanos. With Radar. WIth Radar weight. With Radar drag. Its perfectly okay with me.

What's not okay with me is to put a daylight fighter with the F6F5-N weapons but not its drawbacks.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 09-24-2000).]


RAM, Re-read Verm's Post, Not ALL of the F6F's equipped with 2x20/4x50cal were night fighters. There WERE F6F's that were NOT night-fighters that were equipped as such.

I'm very fond of the F6F, yes, Yes i would like to see the option available to use 2x20/4x50, OR 6x50. will i be dissappointed if the option is not there? sure. I won't whine and cry about it tho, because i can see HTC's POV if they choose not to model it. I would also love to see the many different options that the LW machines (I.E. 190) have available to them modeled as well. As you know RAm i have the Utmost respect for your abilities as a pilot, but i think you are being a hair close-minded on this issue. <S!>


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[This message has been edited by Hamish (edited 09-24-2000).]

Offline Spatula

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2000, 09:07:00 PM »
I dont see whats wrong with the 6*50s...

I fly the mustang almost exclusiley and i find the 6 50 cals by far a superior gun package to a 2 * 20 mm package. set your convergence right, learn not to rely on 1 ping turbo lazer kills, and you'll find 6 50 cals shred planes very easily.

Im not against it, just think people underestimate a 6 50 cal set up.
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Offline Fishu

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2000, 10:07:00 PM »
Vermillion,

You just forget one thing...

US had alot better capabilities for mass production than German.

Simply said: If there was done 50 tanks that destroyed over 500 tanks, should we now leave it because there wasn't made +500 pieces of it?

This isn't simulator anyway, so what are you worrying vermillion, the great allied whiner?
(well, what else could I say about you.. you're talking against LW time to time)

Offline 715

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2000, 10:55:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
<sniff>  <sniff>

Is this that same old rotten bait?

Santa are you going run the k/d numbers of the F4 against the two FW's, removing ground targets from the counts?

Or just go ahead and admit you are trolling?    

Being rather dense I don't quite get what point you are making, but as an aside I have run those numbers in the past for other reasons.  The F4U-1C has the highest k/d against purely fighters (no buffs, no ground targets) but its is only very slightly ahead of the FW190A5.  The margins aren't spectacular though: the F4U-1C kills the opponent 60.2% of the time.  Most planes are near 50% while a few dogs, like the Spit V are down around 33%.  This is for 1.03 not the revised FM of 1.04.

715

Oops.. forgot to add a bit of info possibly relevant to his topic: the cannon hog does way better than the 50 cal hog (60.2% vs 38.9%)

[This message has been edited by 715 (edited 09-24-2000).]

Offline Pongo

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2000, 12:42:00 AM »
How common was the mg151 load out on the mc205?