20mm for F6F

[gatt]

Pongo,
the first series came out lightly armed (spring-summer 1943). Then, directly from the third series on, all C.205s mounted 2x20mm cannons.



[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 09-25-2000).]

[StSanta]

Toad, no. This was just meant to illustrate that its primary purpose was a2g, and in AH it is used as a2a with very great success. That the info I got from some dudes (yanks, believe it or not) was wrong I dinnae know.

In terms of abberations, I mean "who saw real combat". Few cannon armed hogs did. And, as I said, remove all the armament you want from the 190's, I don't care, as long as it better represents the average 190 which saw battle.

But, it has to be said that with the new FM changes, the A5 is far from the über plane it was just after 1.03. And consequently, most dweebs have abandonded it.

Tour 8 (not all of it 1.04 iirc)

The F4U-1C has 9326 kills and has been killed 5633 times.

The Fw 190A-5 has 2738 kills and has been killed 2275 times.

At least a bit telling. Go ahead, subtract groundtargets (which the chog can kill with cannons with ease, and the A5 not   )
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-25-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Fishu you totally miss the point.  

I personally don't want to see the cannons on the F6F, but I realize that for me to argue against it, is hypcritical. I don't care which aircraft we're discussing from which country. I'm just interested in applying the same standards to them all.

So if I am for the armament options on the C.205, the Fw190, the F4U, the P51, the Yak-9U, or the Me109, which I am, then its only fair if I argue for the same "rights" for people who like other aircraft types.

A F6F-5N, which had 1,400 aircraft produced is an "aberration", while the Fw190D9 which had about 700 produced is "an icon (in the religious sense) to the historic Luftwaffe pilots". You don't see a double standard there?  Just because the US made more, then it doesn't count in your opinon?

I don't see the Luftwaffe crowd yelling for the removal of the Ostwind (the F4U-1C of ground vehicles) when there were less than 100 of them made. Talk about an aberration.

Oh wait... Let me check the stats (since you guys seem so fond of doing that).

Tour 8:
The Ostwind has 9200 kills and has been killed 4027 times

A 2.28 K/D ratio, obviously much better than the 1.65 K/D of the F4U-1C

BAN THE OSTWIND, BAN THE OSTWIND!!!  

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Vermillion the Great Allied Whiner
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 09-25-2000).]

[Minotaur]

Verm;

Keep in mind that ground vehicles get and inflated K/D, because of manuver and ack kills.  The panzer got alot this way.

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Ass, ass, ass. I said it and im glad."
Easymo

[Vermillion]

Mino, I was being a smart a##  

I wasn't serious.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
I don't see the Luftwaffe crowd yelling for the removal of the Ostwind (the F4U-1C of ground vehicles) when there were less than 100 of them made. Talk about an aberration.

Yea and germans also has only tank that has a gun (wow, LW owns the countryside now)
but I would still like to see those aircrafts...

He-162 wouldn't be bad, at least there were more made than Ostwind.

[Vermillion]

Didn't I read somewhere that the Luftwaffe actually had an entire armored division, seperate from both the Army and the SS?

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Stiglr]

One of the problems with this particular sim is the proclivity to go with the "what-if", "isn't that cool" vehicle, rather than the representative ones.  With only 200 made, most of these in crates on ships when the A-bombs were dropped, the 4-cannon Corsair is the worst example of the lot. Any *true* Hog fan knows that his plane carries 6 x .50s and is quite happy to deal with it on those terms.

Same with any plane from any nationality. However, when discussing LW birds, keep in mind that they were more likely to "field modify" planes than other countries, so "#s *built*" is not always totally illustrative. That being said, there weren't that many F4 Kanonenbooten, certainly not as many as there were G6/R6. And, of course, the Ostwind is the ground abomination of the century.

The more often you cave in to the "ueberplane" and "gottawin" mentality, the further and further the sim will deviate from a high fidelity simulation of WWII air combat, and turn into a dweebish, freakish Quake with wings. It's just common sense: you gotta start with the planes that actually flew, and in the most numbers. If you ever get to a point where you've got all those planes (good luck!!), *then* go to the fantasy birds. But not one Claude, Stringbag or Devastator before!!!!

[This message has been edited by Stiglr (edited 09-25-2000).]

[Toad]

715 & Santa,

Historically, when you subtract ground targets and targets that don't shoot back (C-47's) the F4U-1C and the FW190A5 have a K/D that's so close it is statistically insignificant. The FW190A8 is about that close as well.

I'm not going to "run the numbers" again though...it's a waste of time.

The people who KNOW this and accept it don't need to be reassured.

The people that KNOW this and don't accept it will NEVER be convince.

They'd rather be   at the unfairness of it all.

 
   



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 09-25-2000).]

[eye]

They made more 20mm day fighter f6's than f4 1c's.

By that fact alone it should be included.

You all forgeting how slow a f6 is?

Add 20mm is just a option. Its not going to make the f6 a world beater.

[715]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
715 & Santa,

Historically, when you subtract ground targets and targets that don't shoot back (C-47's) the F4U-1C and the FW190A5 have a K/D that's so close it is statistically insignificant. The FW190A8 is about that close as well.

I'm not going to "run the numbers" again though...it's a waste of time.

That's what I said, F4U1C is virtually identical to FW190A5 (60.2% vs 59.8%, v1.03 FM, fighter vs fighter) but the A8 is actually statistically lower at 44.4%  (k/(k+d)).  But I agree with "not running the numbers" again... it's incredibly tedious to fill in the entire matrix.

715

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by 715:
That's what I said, F4U1C is virtually identical to FW190A5 (60.2% vs 59.8%, v1.03 FM, fighter vs fighter... 715

Oh, I absolutely agree with you.

My point is that there is a certain group that just can't live with that fact.

Just guessing, but the next thing you'll here is that "In THIS particular case, though, it's the plane, not the pilot. However, in all other cases it's the pilot not the plane."

 

[Fishu]

With F4u C and D I find it funny that C behaves alot different from D.
I find less problems taking off in C than D.
Turn rate and climb are for C also. (even if you fire away your .50 caliber bullets in D, still no help)

Why in the h?ll somebody would make later and more produced version slower, less maneuverable and poorer climber?
That wouldn't surprise me if it would be because of Goering if I wouldn't know that F4u C is US and Goering is German.

[fats]

Vermillion,

Luftwaffe wasn't just planes and pilots. They also had their own ground forces for defending air fields ( and cities? ). I have some sort of info on them at home could check if there's something said about a tank division.


// 00/09/26 fats

[StSanta]

WELL.

*I* have run the numbers again. Check them out dudes; it was worth it.

I even made a point about jabbing at tsjhokk drivers   , but, based on modified K/D rate.

See thread named "Stats revisited..."

It's not tedious at all, when the numbers prove yer point. It's much worse when they (like last time  ) remove the rug under yer feet.

<Pulls rug>

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-26-2000).]