Author Topic: 20mm for F6F  (Read 1256 times)

Offline Toad

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2000, 02:50:00 PM »
Well, Santa...

Since you're immune from tedium, do this for me.

Run the numbers for EACH TOUR since the A5 and the -1C coexisted.

Subtract all vehicle kills and deaths, subtract all C-47 kills and deaths. Then figure the respective K/D's.

Then post us a tour by tour comparison, so we can see how long the "whine" has been valid.

Are you rejoicing because in an unfinished Tour 8 the numbers are at long last, not a statistical "dead heat"?

What about all the previous Tours? Are you thus admitting that the incessant "whining" was indeed unjustified?

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2000, 03:12:00 PM »
Subtract vehicle kills.. hmm, that sounds poor.

Those guns must be count in it.

Offline Minotaur

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« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2000, 04:07:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu:
Subtract vehicle kills.. hmm, that sounds poor.

Those guns must be count in it.

Well...

A vehicle gets the kill because:
  • A vehicle shoots down a plane
  • A plane crashes near vehicle
  • A plane frags its own bellybutton on bomb drop
  • Ack kills plane and vehicle is near
"Vehicle Kills" where the of the vehicle gun actually makes the kill would be too hard to calculate.



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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2000, 05:03:00 PM »
C47's are valid air targets and even a 202 can take one down, so I'll detract only vehicles.

Tour 5:
190A5: 9049 kills, 6342 deaths.
K/D: 1.42.
Modified K/D rate:
(9049 -73 - 396-60)/(6342-37-283-303)
K/D: 1.49
F4U-C: 10537 kills, 6142 deaths.
K/D: 1.71
Modified K/D rate:
(10537-58-1135-1048)/(6142-21-660-426)
K/D: 1.65

Tour 6:
190A5:
8383 kills, 5430 deaths
K/D: 1.54
Modified K/D rate:
(8383-58-368-53)/(5430-19-250-179)
K/D: 1.59
F4U-C:8323 kills, 4661 deaths
K/D: 1.79
Modified K/D rate:
(8323-130-895-789)/(4661-49-430-478)
K/D: 1.76

Tour 7:
190A5:
9805 kills, 6918 deaths
K/D rate: 1.42
Modified K/D rate:
(9805-88-447-67)/(6918-32-330-174)
K/D rate: 1.44
F4U-C: 12335 kills, 7160 deaths
K/D rate: 1.72
Modified K/D rate:
(12335-208-1409-1217)/(7160-39-663-646)
K/D rate: 1.63

Tour 8: (taken from other thread)
190A5: K/D: 1.22
Modified K/D: 1.31
F4U-C K/D: 1.66
Modified K/D: 2.0

Tour 8 is an exception, since parts of it has been flown with revised FM.

Stats show pre 1.04 Dweeb A5 at a modified K/D of around 1.49. Pre 1.04 F4U-C has one around 1.68. A 0.19 difference. Then, as we all know, there were major issues with the A5  flight model, it had too much ammo, and had an fuel tank it shouldn't.

I'm not entirely sure what you want me to show with this comparison. That the A5 was dweeby? Aye, and I stated so at the time. It was fixed, and the A5 dweebs migrated.

What is interesting is comparing the F4U-C with the F4U-D - you'll find a difference much larger than the 10-20% in fm performance the C has over the D. The answer is cannons. I bet that if you put .50's in an A8 and cannons in another, you'd see a difference as well, but probably not as large (as .50's trajectory is much better than those German 20mm's).

Do guns make 100% of a difference, or are more skillfull people flying the C? You be the judge; I've already got an opinion on that.

Toad wrote:

Then post us a tour by tour comparison, so we can see how long the "whine" has been valid.

Well, if we start off with agreeing that the A5 FM was seriously flawed, it carried too much ammo and too much fuel, we have a good start. It was basically a dweebmobile.

Are you rejoicing because in an unfinished Tour 8 the numbers are at long last, not a statistical "dead heat"?

Bet ya five bucks the stats won't change significantly  . And, what you're doing is comparing the C to a Dweebmobile - and it comes out on top - everytime and even with modified K/D!  

What about all the previous Tours? Are you thus admitting that the incessant "whining" was indeed unjustified?
Nope, was fully justified. I should have whined more about the A5 though. I did whine about that one too, but not as much. Thankfully, that one is now fixed.

Now I forgot what my point was. <scratches head>
 

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-26-2000).]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2000, 05:57:00 PM »
C-47's?  No, they can't shoot back. There is absolutely NO RISK in attacking a drone, unless can't avoid mother earth. No ACM involved at all.

You want evaluate the ability of the airplane to kill in combat, right? Not just target shoot? (Although I doubt K/D is much of an indicator of anything, given the way the game is played in the MA)

I think you need to run the numbers again, as it makes a real difference, IIRC.

I ran the numbers for Tour 7 in your "least popular plane topic", posted 08-08-2000 09:32 AM, and I quote:    

"Well, what happens when we focus on Air-to-Air kills?

Here's a view of the F4U-1C vs the FW190-A5 when you remove ground vehicles and the denfenseless C-47 (simply a big, slow target) from the Tour 7 stats.

F4U-1C

Totals 2316 Kills, 1359 Killed

then subtract ground vehicles and the defenseless flying target...

against M3 36/3
against Panzer 209/123
against M16 226/102
against C47 51/6

Totals 1794 Kills 1125 Killed

k/D is 1.59

Now the FW190-A5

Totals 2093 Kills 1336 Killed


against M3 23/13
against Panzer 13/35
against M16 103/58
against C47 34/2

Totals 1930 Kills 1228 Killed

K/D is 1.57"

So I got F4 1.59 vs  FW 1.57, essentially identical K/D.

Leaving the defenseless drone C-47's in, you got F4 1.64 vs FW 1.44.

Take the drones out of all of them and see how it looks.

Anyway, my point is that folks have been crying about the -1C as too "uber", a "dweebmobile", and all that other dross, using the "Sacred K/D Stats" to support their argument. At the same time the -A5 has had essentially the same K/D. THAT'S what I find funny.  

Do cannons make a difference? I hope so..they make a difference in every other plane in the planeset. AH clearly rewards cannon armed planes and planes armed with 4 cannons it rewards the most. Is this news?

OK, now you come back with the standard LW reply: "well, in the F4 it's the plane NOT the pilot...in the FW, it's the pilot not the PLANE" chant.

 

 

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2000, 06:15:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Minotaur:
Well...

A vehicle gets the kill because:
  • A vehicle shoots down a plane
  • A plane crashes near vehicle
  • A plane frags its own bellybutton on bomb drop
  • Ack kills plane and vehicle is near
"Vehicle Kills" where the of the vehicle gun actually makes the kill would be too hard to calculate.

[/B]

As I understand, from F4u and Fw190 stats has no Vehicle kills / deaths counted in.
But that kill out of vehicles is important here.
F4u will most definately win any LW plane in vehicle killing.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2000, 02:47:00 AM »
Toad, they cannot shoot back, but a C-47 is DEAD even if it means a c202. And hogs and c202's have *the same likelihood* of running across one.

I've proven my point and rest my case, with the C47 and the tjshokk in general.  

Also, if you find it funny with the A5, whicvh was admittedly a Dweebmobile overmodelled so it was ludicrious, don't ya find it funny that it was outdone by a "realistically modelled" aircraft?

And no, I ain't a member of the LW cheer leader team, so don't even go there bud  

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StSanta
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[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 09-27-2000).]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2000, 07:05:00 AM »
Well, then add in 1000 more kills for the FW in Tour 8. Because I just shot down Ronni, Nate, Yankee and Supe in P-51's.  Well, they were drones offline, but hey, a drone's a drone!   No more skill to it than that.

You're satisfied because leaving them out favors your argument. Afraid to look at both sides and let people make up their own minds?  

What if the F4 and it's guns ARE accuarately modeled? Scary thought, huh?  
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2000, 08:30:00 AM »
Toad, it doesn't "favour my argument". And you've yet to come up with a reason why they should be left out. They do not skew the kill stats; all plane have an equal opportunity of meething them

Maybe we should remove c202 kills too - and JU88's, those are almost defenseless.

That big fat Lanc is also just a target when properly attacked.

I also have a limit to how tedious something can be. You want revised stats - just subtract the c47 and any other plane of your wish.

Tour 8 is not finished yet. You want that bet  that it doesn't change much? Five buck.



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StSanta
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2000, 10:28:00 AM »
Well, when I get home, I'll do a set without the drone.

What does target shooting have to do with fighter capability?

Bet the K/D's are closer.

Until then, let's see what the rest of the troops think.

How about it guys? Count the drone or not?

Tour 8 may not change much. You said a lot of FW drivers have dropped out of it as soon as it was fixed?  
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2000, 10:51:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
What does target shooting have to do with fighter capability?

F4u C gets good bonus of being more agile than D and exagerated tank killer...


Just A wallpaper for mud movers

Offline Torque

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« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2000, 03:45:00 PM »
God I luv Big Blue. I know Fishu does also he just can't admit to it in public shhhh...

Your secrets safe with me.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2000, 05:33:00 PM »
Toad, no, the LW types stayed. The dweebs (well, the non LW dweebs) left, and went to the N1K or tsjhokk (from what the stats suggest).  

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StSanta
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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2000, 06:44:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Torque:
God I luv Big Blue.  I know Fishu does also he just can't admit to it in public shhhh...

Your secrets safe with me.

I tend to fly every plane except Japanese... (I wonder why, but I've never liked Japanese planes)

Though, I can't say that I would love hogs, even if I've liked those in WarBirds..
It is too blue for my taste  

Offline Pyro

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20mm for F6F
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2000, 03:48:00 PM »
There won't be a 20mm option unless we do the nightfighter version.



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